Builder threatening legal action - advice please?
Discussion
Back in December 2016 my attached neighbour and their attached neighbour told me they were going to have new extensions built at the same time and that their builder doing all the works would start in January. After a few discussions we decided to do ours also and submitted our planning and spoke to their builder and he was happy to do our extension also at the same time and price etc.
So their extensions started in January 2017 and it took him 22 days from pouring the foundations to building both of their extensions to the point that the roof was on and the survey for their new bifold doors and roof lantern skylights was carried out. This was a critical path activity as it was supposed to take approx 6 weeks from the survey date of the door and lantern to their installation.
My planning came through and he started our extension in February 2017. It took him somewhere between 42-51 (can see from photos) days to get our extension from pouring foundation to the point where it could be surveyed for the door and lantern. Thats approximately twice as long to do half the amount of work. Our extension is identical in size etc to our neighbours. The only reason it took so long is that the builder did not turn up half the time to do any work on our house in this period. Would it not be reasonable of me to expect that my extension could have been ready for survey approx 11 days after foundations poured? Ie half the work, half the time approximately.
Anyway, my neighbours doors and lanterns were installed in late April/ early May and their kitchen fit outs started straight after.
My door and lantern was installed at the end of June. The builder did approx 3 days work on my extension by the end of July and by the end of August I still had no kitchen installed (sitting in boxes in the extension since mid June). He was only working random days or part days on our property. He prioritised my neighbours properties and was installing their garden paving slabs at end of August while we still had no kitchen installed, no electrics or no plumbing etc.
At the start of September i gave up on his uselessness and just paid for my own kitchen fitters to install the kitchen and told him he was paying for it and he agreed. Similar with an electrican to connect some lights, the oven and the cooker as we had nothing for weeks just living on microwave meals and takeaways.
By end of September he had done approx 3 weeks work in the 3 months since the door and lantern went in. He was never there. When he was here, his time was split between the 3 houses and we were not priority. When he wasnt there i assume he was off on other jobs.
There was also a loft conversion that was part of the same quote/ schedule of payments. That went ok as there was a seperate team working on that and that was completed apart from decoration at the start of June. We repeatedly asked him to send a decorator to finish it. But a decorator never came.
All payments for the extension and loft are paid except for The decoration payment. However there is a considerable amount of second fix electrical, plumbing, carpentry, tiling that is not done in the kitchen area, but is paid for. The decoration is also not done anywhere.
There was also a garage that was a seperate quote/ schedule of payments. (A seperate contract?) All payments of the garage are done apart from the final payment for the internals which are not complete. The builder sent me an invoice for part payment for part of the works. This is not what was agreed at the start. Finish the stage, pay the stage is what was agreed.
Long story short, the builder didnt turn up for the first 2 weeks in October claiming that that noone let him into the house. He made no calls or left any messages etc. He then sent his first legal threat letter about not paying the part payment invoice and it decended from there and we sacked him.
He is now threatening legal action if we dont pay him the full final payment on the garage, a sum of £7000. He has completed approx 75% of the work. So In my opinion we owe him approx £5500.
He is also claiming full payment of £3000 for decorating the extension and loft. He has not decorated anywhere in the house. Only undercoats were done (approx 1.5 days work). To fill, sand, mastic and decorate the areas he worked in the house including all the new fire doors is at least 2 weeks work for a decorator. So for decoration in my opinion I owe him £300-500?
There is also a final payment on completion of £1300 on the schedule which I assume was for snagging etc. He didnt finish anything anywhere.
I have paid out £3600 for the kitchen fitting and electrican etc and the outstanding works that I mentioned earlier in the kitchen area that are already paid for on top of this. I estimate this at approx £3500 worth of work also. Totaling approx £7000 he owes me in my opinion.
The builder has even acknowledged in this last threathening letter that he owes me over £6800. But he is claiming i owe him £11300 ie the full payments for the works he hasnt completed.
In my opinion what I owe him is cancelled out by what he owes me easily and there is no case.
Fortunately we have taken many progress photos through the works areas throughout the whole process so it is easy to confirm that he did not turn up to work as it can be easily seen there is no progress for days and weeks at a time. There are also many text imessage and whatsapp conversations with him where we are constantly chasing him to come and do some work and that the situation he caused us is not reasonable and all the time we called him and he ignored us and never made contact.
He is also claiming in his threathening letter that because i didnt pay the last garage invoice (the works which are not completed) he has suffered stress and disruption to his workflow and is threathening £25000 damages if I dont pay up £3500 to part ways.
What is the legal view on this? The stress and disruption this builder has caused us through the year has been unbelievable. These works were only supposed to take 16 weeks. We gave the work based on what he said in his quote and whathe said he would do. I had to take time off work to give them access to the house. He caused a 6 week dalay on the door and lantern installation and we lost another 6 weeks through July, Aug & Sept by him not not turning up.
We feel this is probably not the first time he has done this and knows the process. We dont. We are worried that he will drag us through a legal case that cost us a fortune. Could he win?
Are the photos and text message and whatsapp conversations admissable legally if we print them all out and submit them in a case? They are just normal iphone photos with the date/time stamp at the top. Thats our only proof and defence. We are sitting here waiting for a legal solicitors letter or court letter to arrive from him now and the worry is not doing us any good.
There are so many other things i could mention also such as, the kitchen counter top tiles all fell off the wall after 2 weeks because they were stuck straight onto a painted wall that was not prepared. They were not installed by a tiler. And i cant open my back upstairs bedroom windows because the new upvc eaves soffit in fixed straight onto the old timber soffit lowering the level and the windows hit it now.
2017 has been a total nightmare. I have a plumber coming next week to fit the kitchen sink plumbing as we havnt had a working sink since July and the rest of the house is still not decorated which I willtry make progress on during the holidays.
Please can someone advise any legally sound advice? Happy to answer any further questions if more detail required or if anything is unclear. Thanks.
So their extensions started in January 2017 and it took him 22 days from pouring the foundations to building both of their extensions to the point that the roof was on and the survey for their new bifold doors and roof lantern skylights was carried out. This was a critical path activity as it was supposed to take approx 6 weeks from the survey date of the door and lantern to their installation.
My planning came through and he started our extension in February 2017. It took him somewhere between 42-51 (can see from photos) days to get our extension from pouring foundation to the point where it could be surveyed for the door and lantern. Thats approximately twice as long to do half the amount of work. Our extension is identical in size etc to our neighbours. The only reason it took so long is that the builder did not turn up half the time to do any work on our house in this period. Would it not be reasonable of me to expect that my extension could have been ready for survey approx 11 days after foundations poured? Ie half the work, half the time approximately.
Anyway, my neighbours doors and lanterns were installed in late April/ early May and their kitchen fit outs started straight after.
My door and lantern was installed at the end of June. The builder did approx 3 days work on my extension by the end of July and by the end of August I still had no kitchen installed (sitting in boxes in the extension since mid June). He was only working random days or part days on our property. He prioritised my neighbours properties and was installing their garden paving slabs at end of August while we still had no kitchen installed, no electrics or no plumbing etc.
At the start of September i gave up on his uselessness and just paid for my own kitchen fitters to install the kitchen and told him he was paying for it and he agreed. Similar with an electrican to connect some lights, the oven and the cooker as we had nothing for weeks just living on microwave meals and takeaways.
By end of September he had done approx 3 weeks work in the 3 months since the door and lantern went in. He was never there. When he was here, his time was split between the 3 houses and we were not priority. When he wasnt there i assume he was off on other jobs.
There was also a loft conversion that was part of the same quote/ schedule of payments. That went ok as there was a seperate team working on that and that was completed apart from decoration at the start of June. We repeatedly asked him to send a decorator to finish it. But a decorator never came.
All payments for the extension and loft are paid except for The decoration payment. However there is a considerable amount of second fix electrical, plumbing, carpentry, tiling that is not done in the kitchen area, but is paid for. The decoration is also not done anywhere.
There was also a garage that was a seperate quote/ schedule of payments. (A seperate contract?) All payments of the garage are done apart from the final payment for the internals which are not complete. The builder sent me an invoice for part payment for part of the works. This is not what was agreed at the start. Finish the stage, pay the stage is what was agreed.
Long story short, the builder didnt turn up for the first 2 weeks in October claiming that that noone let him into the house. He made no calls or left any messages etc. He then sent his first legal threat letter about not paying the part payment invoice and it decended from there and we sacked him.
He is now threatening legal action if we dont pay him the full final payment on the garage, a sum of £7000. He has completed approx 75% of the work. So In my opinion we owe him approx £5500.
He is also claiming full payment of £3000 for decorating the extension and loft. He has not decorated anywhere in the house. Only undercoats were done (approx 1.5 days work). To fill, sand, mastic and decorate the areas he worked in the house including all the new fire doors is at least 2 weeks work for a decorator. So for decoration in my opinion I owe him £300-500?
There is also a final payment on completion of £1300 on the schedule which I assume was for snagging etc. He didnt finish anything anywhere.
I have paid out £3600 for the kitchen fitting and electrican etc and the outstanding works that I mentioned earlier in the kitchen area that are already paid for on top of this. I estimate this at approx £3500 worth of work also. Totaling approx £7000 he owes me in my opinion.
The builder has even acknowledged in this last threathening letter that he owes me over £6800. But he is claiming i owe him £11300 ie the full payments for the works he hasnt completed.
In my opinion what I owe him is cancelled out by what he owes me easily and there is no case.
Fortunately we have taken many progress photos through the works areas throughout the whole process so it is easy to confirm that he did not turn up to work as it can be easily seen there is no progress for days and weeks at a time. There are also many text imessage and whatsapp conversations with him where we are constantly chasing him to come and do some work and that the situation he caused us is not reasonable and all the time we called him and he ignored us and never made contact.
He is also claiming in his threathening letter that because i didnt pay the last garage invoice (the works which are not completed) he has suffered stress and disruption to his workflow and is threathening £25000 damages if I dont pay up £3500 to part ways.
What is the legal view on this? The stress and disruption this builder has caused us through the year has been unbelievable. These works were only supposed to take 16 weeks. We gave the work based on what he said in his quote and whathe said he would do. I had to take time off work to give them access to the house. He caused a 6 week dalay on the door and lantern installation and we lost another 6 weeks through July, Aug & Sept by him not not turning up.
We feel this is probably not the first time he has done this and knows the process. We dont. We are worried that he will drag us through a legal case that cost us a fortune. Could he win?
Are the photos and text message and whatsapp conversations admissable legally if we print them all out and submit them in a case? They are just normal iphone photos with the date/time stamp at the top. Thats our only proof and defence. We are sitting here waiting for a legal solicitors letter or court letter to arrive from him now and the worry is not doing us any good.
There are so many other things i could mention also such as, the kitchen counter top tiles all fell off the wall after 2 weeks because they were stuck straight onto a painted wall that was not prepared. They were not installed by a tiler. And i cant open my back upstairs bedroom windows because the new upvc eaves soffit in fixed straight onto the old timber soffit lowering the level and the windows hit it now.
2017 has been a total nightmare. I have a plumber coming next week to fit the kitchen sink plumbing as we havnt had a working sink since July and the rest of the house is still not decorated which I willtry make progress on during the holidays.
Please can someone advise any legally sound advice? Happy to answer any further questions if more detail required or if anything is unclear. Thanks.
I'm sorry to say that I think you should seek an actual legal opinion, especially if you are feeling concerned and troubled about the whole thing. You'll get some thoughts here I'm sure in amongst all the gumpf about what you should have done, but it sounds like quite a complex he said she said dispute to me where an actual lawyer would help you through the whole thing.
Hope you get it sorted.
Bert
Hope you get it sorted.
Bert
If he's threatening legal action he thinks he's got a case and he could be right, part right or wrong. You disagree and you could be right, part right or wrong. The truth will inevitably be some where between your two positions and the two of you need to cut to the chase and get to an agreement as soon as possible so that (a) you'll get the job finished and (b) avoid the cost and time of going to court. If it goes to court the two of you will have to agree upon a single joint expert to write a report for the benefit of the court (the days of tow separate surveyors are over).
Judging from what you've said you are unlikely to come to an agreement and I suggest that you approach the builder and try and agree upon appointing an independent surveyor to sort it out for you.
Judging from what you've said you are unlikely to come to an agreement and I suggest that you approach the builder and try and agree upon appointing an independent surveyor to sort it out for you.
How much is that going to cost to get s surveyor and go to court because im the one who currently cant sleep properly at night with the worry and with my wifes mother just this week being diagnosed with cancer we dont need this.. He is s nasty piece of work and even though we've been absolutely shafted im close to just taking the hit, paying the £3500 to make it all go away.
mrmarcus said:
How much is that going to cost to get s surveyor and go to court because im the one who currently cant sleep properly at night with the worry and with my wifes mother just this week being diagnosed with cancer we dont need this.. He is s nasty piece of work and even though we've been absolutely shafted im close to just taking the hit, paying the £3500 to make it all go away.
It would appear you have answered your own question here.IANAL but I am in the construction business.
I'm guessing that there was no detailed contract. This would normally provide a mechanism for dealing with disputes.
My advice would be to make a list of all the unfinished work and then present it to the builder in writing.
I'd also list separately the work which has been paid for but not completed.
The builder needs to be given the opportunity to complete the work to a good standard unless you have lost faith in his ability to do so.
It may be prudent also to get some quotes elsewhere for finishing the work at this stage. This will help in assessing how much you need to pay him up to date.
In my opinion, the builder hasn't got a leg to stand on but you never know how it'll go in court and TBH by the time you've got expert witnesses involved, any claim might well take you over the threshold for going through the small claims court. Then it would be very expensive.
I'd try the softly softly approach first, tell him you want to pay but just need to quantify how much, then go your separate ways.
If that fails, try a solicitors letter.
I wouldn't worry too much about him claiming damages unless there's something you're not telling us.
I'm guessing that there was no detailed contract. This would normally provide a mechanism for dealing with disputes.
My advice would be to make a list of all the unfinished work and then present it to the builder in writing.
I'd also list separately the work which has been paid for but not completed.
The builder needs to be given the opportunity to complete the work to a good standard unless you have lost faith in his ability to do so.
It may be prudent also to get some quotes elsewhere for finishing the work at this stage. This will help in assessing how much you need to pay him up to date.
In my opinion, the builder hasn't got a leg to stand on but you never know how it'll go in court and TBH by the time you've got expert witnesses involved, any claim might well take you over the threshold for going through the small claims court. Then it would be very expensive.
I'd try the softly softly approach first, tell him you want to pay but just need to quantify how much, then go your separate ways.
If that fails, try a solicitors letter.
I wouldn't worry too much about him claiming damages unless there's something you're not telling us.
Qcarchoo said:
IANAL but I am in the construction business.
I'm guessing that there was no detailed contract. This would normally provide a mechanism for dealing with disputes.
My advice would be to make a list of all the unfinished work and then present it to the builder in writing.
I'd also list separately the work which has been paid for but not completed.
The builder needs to be given the opportunity to complete the work to a good standard unless you have lost faith in his ability to do so.
It may be prudent also to get some quotes elsewhere for finishing the work at this stage. This will help in assessing how much you need to pay him up to date.
In my opinion, the builder hasn't got a leg to stand on but you never know how it'll go in court and TBH by the time you've got expert witnesses involved, any claim might well take you over the threshold for going through the small claims court. Then it would be very expensive.
I'd try the softly softly approach first, tell him you want to pay but just need to quantify how much, then go your separate ways.
If that fails, try a solicitors letter.
I wouldn't worry too much about him claiming damages unless there's something you're not telling us.
No formal contracts. An email quote and schedule for the extension & loft works with all the seperate stages such as foundations, walls, roof, first fix etc etc and the price for each stage. They are all paid except 3000 for decorating and 1300 for final payment. I'm guessing that there was no detailed contract. This would normally provide a mechanism for dealing with disputes.
My advice would be to make a list of all the unfinished work and then present it to the builder in writing.
I'd also list separately the work which has been paid for but not completed.
The builder needs to be given the opportunity to complete the work to a good standard unless you have lost faith in his ability to do so.
It may be prudent also to get some quotes elsewhere for finishing the work at this stage. This will help in assessing how much you need to pay him up to date.
In my opinion, the builder hasn't got a leg to stand on but you never know how it'll go in court and TBH by the time you've got expert witnesses involved, any claim might well take you over the threshold for going through the small claims court. Then it would be very expensive.
I'd try the softly softly approach first, tell him you want to pay but just need to quantify how much, then go your separate ways.
If that fails, try a solicitors letter.
I wouldn't worry too much about him claiming damages unless there's something you're not telling us.
A seperate email and quote and schedule for the garage. Garage is invoiced seperately to the extension/ loft like its a seperate job but of course resource has been pulled from one to feed the other as he didnt take on any extra guys. Only 4 stages for garage - foundations, walls, roof & internals. Window not installed, floor screed not finished, second fix electrics not done, first fix plumbing not done, skirting boards not done and aditionally rendering not complete, drainage not complete and plenty making good not done.
I have already made a schedule of all the works and whats outstanding and not paid for and whats been paid for and not completed and sent it to him.
He initially built the loft with a roof light missing (should have been 2 as per drawings but only fitted 1) cause noone looked at the drawings, he did change it after we pointed it out, the site toilet was offhired in August and we caught the men goining to the toilet in the garden at least 4 different days. They been using the new downstairs toilets in next doors extension from August onwards supposedly. We have photos of all this and the messages sent etc. telling them to stop.
He has a secret recording he made of us on his last visit where we were showing him everything that isnt complete that hes claiming for and there was alot of cursing and swearing through frustration at his denial of any responsibility etc and his last letter says we were abusive towards him directly which we actually were not just frustration and anger its come to this.
Honestly, if i owed him money id pay him cause i wouldnt cheat anyone out of work theyve done. Hes claiming for work he hasnt done.
Our defence wholly depends on whether photos and text message conversations are usable as evidence as this is our only record of what went on. Also whether the loft/ extension is considered a seperate contract to the garage as one of his reasons he blames me for delays to his workflow are that I increased the works by adding the garage. He knew about the garage since January but the planning couldnt be submitted until the extension was granted in February.
Its what you say about the costs of surveyors and lawyers etc racking up and this dragging on 6 months or a year or more that makes me think F**k it and take the hit cause ive no idea of the costs really but you hear all the scare stories like them ppl fighting over the 3 inches of overhang last week and then they lose and cant afford all the legal bils so have to sell the house.
Sounds like the kind of situation where a mediator would be useful as the first stage in dispute resolution.
If it goes legal, I guess you will be counter claiming. So, get an independent mediator in to negotiate between the pair of you. If you suggest this it will also look better if this makes it as far as court.
Get a local QS to put together a schedule of work done, payments made and payments outstanding.
If it goes legal, I guess you will be counter claiming. So, get an independent mediator in to negotiate between the pair of you. If you suggest this it will also look better if this makes it as far as court.
Get a local QS to put together a schedule of work done, payments made and payments outstanding.
For the sake of £3500 I'd say life's too short.
Litigation is very stressful, consuming and expensive.
It looks as though there's a lot of unravelling to do.
I know from experience that no matter how solid you think your case is, it all depends on how persuasive your/his legal team are on the day.
£3500 really isn't a lot compared to how much it could cost if it goes legal.
Litigation is very stressful, consuming and expensive.
It looks as though there's a lot of unravelling to do.
I know from experience that no matter how solid you think your case is, it all depends on how persuasive your/his legal team are on the day.
£3500 really isn't a lot compared to how much it could cost if it goes legal.
Qcarchoo said:
For the sake of £3500 I'd say life's too short.
Litigation is very stressful, consuming and expensive.
Expensive for BOTH parties - if it is as bad as you say - tell him to do one - make him do the work. The work has either being done, or it has not.Litigation is very stressful, consuming and expensive.
Mediation is really a first step - and cheaper - Photos, texts and emails is all fine for this. You are not talking a criminal case of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt".
I'd send him a list of outstanding work needing doing before payment, combine it with a clear write up of what you've paid & why you don't believe you owe him any more money, align it with the original agreement you both had & his schedule/plans/promises etc. ... Then sign it, copy it, post it recorded delivery. After that, tell him you will see him "in court".
A text message threatening you with court and £25,000 damage is just petty scare tactics. You could counter it with some "gucci" level quotes that you will counter claim him with, go for obscenely high end builders etc (Pimlico plumbers to do all plumbing etc etc...)
When he refers to court, most he could do would be a small claims court/money claim order, which will cost him £120 IIRC to file. You would receive a wedge of his paperwork (if he has) on why he is claiming, you prepare your reasons against etc, few months later you go to mediation, then court... They go off balence of probabilities. Whoever has the fairest & most reasonable argument wins, you & your sob story & detailed evidence pack vs nasty aggressive builder... no brainer.
Either way, this is all a moot point. No builder will bother with this level of hassle, too much ££££ to be made out there as is. £3500 is small change if he is running several jobs on the go at any one time. Minute he has to do more then fire off nasty text messages and emails, he will give up. It all sounds like the old "parking charge notices".
Sometimes it’s better to call it a day and move on, if he goes legal it’s just expensive.
Make him a “fook off and don’t bother me of 500 in cash” if he accepts then get it in writing that you’ve paid up and he has no longer any payment due.
Take it as a lesson for dealing without a bolt and braces contract.
If not see him in court. I don’t think you’ll end up in court but 500 you’ll also not miss the stress.
Good luck
JR
Make him a “fook off and don’t bother me of 500 in cash” if he accepts then get it in writing that you’ve paid up and he has no longer any payment due.
Take it as a lesson for dealing without a bolt and braces contract.
If not see him in court. I don’t think you’ll end up in court but 500 you’ll also not miss the stress.
Good luck
JR
I couldn't swallow it, £500 - £3500 paid to just shrug it off. THEN the money to get someone else to do it...
At the very least blag the "see you in court" route, and IF IF IF he decide its worth his time and stress (which it is isn't; as a well paid & busy builder...) then thrown him the money at mediation / let a court force you to pay it. Don't buckle at the first hurdle.
Worse case it costs you the extra £120odd he had to pay for the money claim, but worth a punt in my book.
At the very least blag the "see you in court" route, and IF IF IF he decide its worth his time and stress (which it is isn't; as a well paid & busy builder...) then thrown him the money at mediation / let a court force you to pay it. Don't buckle at the first hurdle.
Worse case it costs you the extra £120odd he had to pay for the money claim, but worth a punt in my book.
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