Police stop and & search in a shopping mall for taking photo
Discussion
Hi,
Would welcome legal & BiB (among others) views on this - I'm no police hater and this is the only negative interaction I've ever had.
Last week I visited a shopping mall for a walk around, something to eat and visit one or two shops.
It was just as it was starting to get dark and so a took a few photos of the changing light (with my phone camera). A security guard approaches me and tells me no photos allowed and that there are signs on every entrance.
So I go out check the entrance and no signs (apart from a CCTV sign). I go back in and check with the info desk - they say it is ok to take photos, so I carry on...
Two (male and female) police officers approach and in an immediately aggressive tone tell me they've been watching me on camera taking photos. The male one does all the talking. He asks to see the photos and for my phone (which was in my pocket). I try to tell him Ive already asked at the info desk but he tells me the info desk isnt the place to ask (?!), and again asks for my phone. In response I tell him I don't believe has the right to take my phone and he's not getting it. He insists he does.
At that point I started getting a little fed up and decided to leave. He grabbed me by my arms and I asked him if I was being detained, he said he was detaining me in order to "speak to me" and again told me to give him my phone. I refused.
He then told me he was searching me under some Terrorism Act to get the phone and tried to reach into the pocket with the phone. I resisted. He again grabbed both my arms and asked his colleague to get the phone out of my pocket. She declined.
After struggling for a minute he started shouting "Leave" in my face and I was escorted off the premises.
Now, I don't mind being asked to leave private property or them deciding no photos there.
What I am confused about is what *should* have happened?
I made a complaint to the police force A&S, and was called by an officer today, who basically told me that yes they can detain me to speak to me, that he was within his rights to take phone, and to search me for my phone. She also said that they dont need to give stop and search records.
In my mind, I was in the right. According the police, apparently not.
so...
1. Can I be detained by a uniformed officer in order to "speak to me"
2. Can an officer force me to give him my phone/camera
3. Can the officer search me to find said phone
4. Do they have to provide search records?
A look at the gov.uk website suggests not (https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights). I can't seem to find an authoritative source to answer the detention question either.
(youtube shows some amusing videos when searching for stuff like this, but it's all a bit too "freeman of the land" to believe)
Cheers
Would welcome legal & BiB (among others) views on this - I'm no police hater and this is the only negative interaction I've ever had.
Last week I visited a shopping mall for a walk around, something to eat and visit one or two shops.
It was just as it was starting to get dark and so a took a few photos of the changing light (with my phone camera). A security guard approaches me and tells me no photos allowed and that there are signs on every entrance.
So I go out check the entrance and no signs (apart from a CCTV sign). I go back in and check with the info desk - they say it is ok to take photos, so I carry on...
Two (male and female) police officers approach and in an immediately aggressive tone tell me they've been watching me on camera taking photos. The male one does all the talking. He asks to see the photos and for my phone (which was in my pocket). I try to tell him Ive already asked at the info desk but he tells me the info desk isnt the place to ask (?!), and again asks for my phone. In response I tell him I don't believe has the right to take my phone and he's not getting it. He insists he does.
At that point I started getting a little fed up and decided to leave. He grabbed me by my arms and I asked him if I was being detained, he said he was detaining me in order to "speak to me" and again told me to give him my phone. I refused.
He then told me he was searching me under some Terrorism Act to get the phone and tried to reach into the pocket with the phone. I resisted. He again grabbed both my arms and asked his colleague to get the phone out of my pocket. She declined.
After struggling for a minute he started shouting "Leave" in my face and I was escorted off the premises.
Now, I don't mind being asked to leave private property or them deciding no photos there.
What I am confused about is what *should* have happened?
I made a complaint to the police force A&S, and was called by an officer today, who basically told me that yes they can detain me to speak to me, that he was within his rights to take phone, and to search me for my phone. She also said that they dont need to give stop and search records.
In my mind, I was in the right. According the police, apparently not.
so...
1. Can I be detained by a uniformed officer in order to "speak to me"
2. Can an officer force me to give him my phone/camera
3. Can the officer search me to find said phone
4. Do they have to provide search records?
A look at the gov.uk website suggests not (https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights). I can't seem to find an authoritative source to answer the detention question either.
(youtube shows some amusing videos when searching for stuff like this, but it's all a bit too "freeman of the land" to believe)
Cheers
This might help, you'll need to scroll down a bit
http://www.techradar.com/how-to/photography-video-...
http://www.techradar.com/how-to/photography-video-...
Bigends said:
Ken handles this well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TuxOUGV6hE
I don't usually have much time for Ken but I agree, very well handled!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TuxOUGV6hE
Pericoloso said:
Show policeman pics ,then you show him deleting them and get on with your life ,rather than all those shenanigans.
a. Youre under no obligation to show the officer any pics youve takenb. You certainly dont have to delete them.
If they want either of the above done then arrest and sort out in custody
1. Can I be detained by a uniformed officer in order to "speak to me"
- Yes, he will most likely have "detained you for the purpose of the search" in order to find your phone and see if any offence had been carried out..
2. Can an officer force me to give him my phone/camera
- Yes he can if he believes that your phone may have been used to commit and offence.
3. Can the officer search me to find said phone
- Yes, they can. This is perfectly legal as a means of finding evidence that a crime has been committed.
4. Do they have to provide search records?
- They have to provide your police record on request, however that only covers offences that you have been cautioned for, arrested for or convicted for. A stop and search is none of those and therefore won't be on your police record.
You should have just showed the security guard or if you didn't want to deal with him the police your photos and if they requested you deleted them then you should have done so. You'd have been sent on your way most likely.
The reason the shopping centres and other venues have these policies in place is due to terrorist threats, terrorists often scout out targets by photographing things. Police at events have caught people taking photographs of random things one week and supposedly foiled terrorist plots this way. If you're taking a photo of some live entertainment or something you'll probably not be stopped, if you start taking photos of seemingly random things you should be prepared to be stopped.
- Yes, he will most likely have "detained you for the purpose of the search" in order to find your phone and see if any offence had been carried out..
2. Can an officer force me to give him my phone/camera
- Yes he can if he believes that your phone may have been used to commit and offence.
3. Can the officer search me to find said phone
- Yes, they can. This is perfectly legal as a means of finding evidence that a crime has been committed.
4. Do they have to provide search records?
- They have to provide your police record on request, however that only covers offences that you have been cautioned for, arrested for or convicted for. A stop and search is none of those and therefore won't be on your police record.
You should have just showed the security guard or if you didn't want to deal with him the police your photos and if they requested you deleted them then you should have done so. You'd have been sent on your way most likely.
The reason the shopping centres and other venues have these policies in place is due to terrorist threats, terrorists often scout out targets by photographing things. Police at events have caught people taking photographs of random things one week and supposedly foiled terrorist plots this way. If you're taking a photo of some live entertainment or something you'll probably not be stopped, if you start taking photos of seemingly random things you should be prepared to be stopped.
revvingit said:
1. Can I be detained by a uniformed officer in order to "speak to me"
- Yes, he will most likely have "detained you for the purpose of the search" in order to find your phone and see if any offence had been carried out..
2. Can an officer force me to give him my phone/camera
- Yes he can if he believes that your phone may have been used to commit and offence.
3. Can the officer search me to find said phone
- Yes, they can. This is perfectly legal as a means of finding evidence that a crime has been committed.
4. Do they have to provide search records?
- They have to provide your police record on request, however that only covers offences that you have been cautioned for, arrested for or convicted for. A stop and search is none of those and therefore won't be on your police record.
You should have just showed the security guard or if you didn't want to deal with him the police your photos and if they requested you deleted them then you should have done so. You'd have been sent on your way most likely.
The reason the shopping centres and other venues have these policies in place is due to terrorist threats, terrorists often scout out targets by photographing things. Police at events have caught people taking photographs of random things one week and supposedly foiled terrorist plots this way. If you're taking a photo of some live entertainment or something you'll probably not be stopped, if you start taking photos of seemingly random things you should be prepared to be stopped.
Can you provide any links to sources that confirm that? - Yes, he will most likely have "detained you for the purpose of the search" in order to find your phone and see if any offence had been carried out..
2. Can an officer force me to give him my phone/camera
- Yes he can if he believes that your phone may have been used to commit and offence.
3. Can the officer search me to find said phone
- Yes, they can. This is perfectly legal as a means of finding evidence that a crime has been committed.
4. Do they have to provide search records?
- They have to provide your police record on request, however that only covers offences that you have been cautioned for, arrested for or convicted for. A stop and search is none of those and therefore won't be on your police record.
You should have just showed the security guard or if you didn't want to deal with him the police your photos and if they requested you deleted them then you should have done so. You'd have been sent on your way most likely.
The reason the shopping centres and other venues have these policies in place is due to terrorist threats, terrorists often scout out targets by photographing things. Police at events have caught people taking photographs of random things one week and supposedly foiled terrorist plots this way. If you're taking a photo of some live entertainment or something you'll probably not be stopped, if you start taking photos of seemingly random things you should be prepared to be stopped.
mbcx4jrh said:
Can you provide any links to sources that confirm that?
The right to search your phone (there is an equivalent UK law)https://www.livbrown.co.uk/blog/2014/08/can-the-po...
Regards the police records:
https://www.gov.uk/copy-of-police-records - Request yours if you really want confirmation.
https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-servi...
Shopping malls are right on the front line of terrorism. There have been several, perhaps dozens, of plots foiled across the UK since 2001. Security guards and police are trained to spot people taking reconnaissance photos. They are also on the lookout for diddlers taking photos. It sounds like they thought you looked unusual, but their investigation was a bit clumsy.
Best just to accept they were only doing their job (perhaps badly), suck it up, and move on. The world will keep spinning.
Best just to accept they were only doing their job (perhaps badly), suck it up, and move on. The world will keep spinning.
revvingit said:
mbcx4jrh said:
Can you provide any links to sources that confirm that?
The right to search your phone (there is an equivalent UK law)https://www.livbrown.co.uk/blog/2014/08/can-the-po...
What offence had the OP committed?
Which offence did the officer commit when he grabbed him by the arm?
Yipper said:
Shopping malls are right on the front line of terrorism. There have been several, perhaps dozens, of plots foiled across the UK since 2001. Security guards and police are trained to spot people taking reconnaissance photos. They are also on the lookout for diddlers taking photos. It sounds like they thought you looked unusual, but their investigation was a bit clumsy.
Best just to accept they were only doing their job (perhaps badly), suck it up, and move on. The world will keep spinning.
Really? If they thought I was in any related to terrorism, then why did they give up and let me go? At what point did it become clear I wasn’t a terrorist? Best just to accept they were only doing their job (perhaps badly), suck it up, and move on. The world will keep spinning.
mbcx4jrh said:
Really? If they thought I was in any related to terrorism, then why did they give up and let me go? At what point did it become clear I wasn’t a terrorist?
Exactly - photography in the Mall contrary to their rules is a civil matter between the OP and the Mall owners/security who should have obtained his details and issued a banning order if they are that bothered - even though the OP had been given the go ahead to take his pictures. They could have asked the OP to leave the mall and 'escort' him out if requiredIf the Police were that concerned they should have detained the OP under the terrorism act and dealt with the matter properly - otherwise they have no grounds to view or delete his images
Edited by Bigends on Friday 2nd February 19:20
king christ.Isn't it perfectly legal to take photographs in a public place? If so what was the lawful justification for the police action? That said, a shopping centre could maybe class as a private building?
There must be a lot of people who take photographs in a mall that don't get a tug so is there something different about the OP or his situation?
There must be a lot of people who take photographs in a mall that don't get a tug so is there something different about the OP or his situation?
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