Secondary school appeal solicitors, any joy?
Discussion
Finding ourselves in the invidious position of not receiving a placement offer from any of our elected secondary school preferences for my youngest son. The school offered is not an option.
Back up plans are a radical relocation or a brand new Cathedral School that may be fine but has no track record and is on temporary premises for at least a year so not ideal but not the end of the world.
As it stands we accepted a place at the Cathedral school which does not stop us appealing the lack of offer at our first choice which I am going to do as a matter of course.
My question is, does legal representation offer much in the way of a better chance compared to a self represented appeal? I can certainly have a stab at it and will but the relevant lawyers seem very slick with packages from A to D but no statistics forth coming on their specific success rate. General stats suggest just under 20% of appeals are successful.
Does anyone have any experience of these services, guidance or suggestions. I'm happy enough to represent us to a panel but I think I'll get the solicitors to write the primary grounds for appeal, basically we are in primary catchment but school is over subscribed and our number didn't come up, however 10% of appeals to this school are successful. Any experience or advice would be great.
Back up plans are a radical relocation or a brand new Cathedral School that may be fine but has no track record and is on temporary premises for at least a year so not ideal but not the end of the world.
As it stands we accepted a place at the Cathedral school which does not stop us appealing the lack of offer at our first choice which I am going to do as a matter of course.
My question is, does legal representation offer much in the way of a better chance compared to a self represented appeal? I can certainly have a stab at it and will but the relevant lawyers seem very slick with packages from A to D but no statistics forth coming on their specific success rate. General stats suggest just under 20% of appeals are successful.
Does anyone have any experience of these services, guidance or suggestions. I'm happy enough to represent us to a panel but I think I'll get the solicitors to write the primary grounds for appeal, basically we are in primary catchment but school is over subscribed and our number didn't come up, however 10% of appeals to this school are successful. Any experience or advice would be great.
Depends on the reason you haven't gained a place at your preferred school. If it's because you're in the priority catchment area but not close enough it doesn't matter how many solicitors you employ, you won't get a place if the school is full with students who live closer than you.
Example: the outstanding school near us ended up only admitting students (apart from priority students*) closer than 1,053 yards last year. Their priority catchment is up to 2 miles.
Example: the outstanding school near us ended up only admitting students (apart from priority students*) closer than 1,053 yards last year. Their priority catchment is up to 2 miles.
- children with siblings already at that school (< 10), children of staff members (2), LAC/Forces students (a couple at most).
Edited by sim72 on Thursday 1st March 22:24
Thanks sim. First catchment has 84 places with certain priority candidates, special needs 10%, siblings then an average of 9 different levels on standardized tests which is probably the issue as my lad would score in the middle and most numerous category. Geographically we would be closer than most. If I'd coached him to be in the lowest percentile he may well be in but I could second guess all week.
If the school is over-subscribed and you are unlucky then it's not grounds for appeal. I tried this when my eldest didn't get the primary school we wanted and failed.
What we learned was that the only way you can successfully overturn the decision is if you can prove that whomever did the selections and allocations did something procedurally incorrect which resulted in your not getting the place which is unlikely.
What we learned was that the only way you can successfully overturn the decision is if you can prove that whomever did the selections and allocations did something procedurally incorrect which resulted in your not getting the place which is unlikely.
Edited by E36GUY on Friday 2nd March 09:30
Jaroon said:
Finding ourselves in the invidious position of not receiving a placement offer from any of our elected secondary school preferences for my youngest son. The school offered is not an option.
Back up plans are a radical relocation or a brand new Cathedral School that may be fine but has no track record and is on temporary premises for at least a year so not ideal but not the end of the world.
As it stands we accepted a place at the Cathedral school which does not stop us appealing the lack of offer at our first choice which I am going to do as a matter of course.
My question is, does legal representation offer much in the way of a better chance compared to a self represented appeal? I can certainly have a stab at it and will but the relevant lawyers seem very slick with packages from A to D but no statistics forth coming on their specific success rate. General stats suggest just under 20% of appeals are successful.
Does anyone have any experience of these services, guidance or suggestions. I'm happy enough to represent us to a panel but I think I'll get the solicitors to write the primary grounds for appeal, basically we are in primary catchment but school is over subscribed and our number didn't come up, however 10% of appeals to this school are successful. Any experience or advice would be great.
Father in law chairs school appeals for a couple of LAs and he says the only way is through process errors or the other options are not feasible i.e. significant travel or sometimes religious beliefs (or lack of) can work. Back up plans are a radical relocation or a brand new Cathedral School that may be fine but has no track record and is on temporary premises for at least a year so not ideal but not the end of the world.
As it stands we accepted a place at the Cathedral school which does not stop us appealing the lack of offer at our first choice which I am going to do as a matter of course.
My question is, does legal representation offer much in the way of a better chance compared to a self represented appeal? I can certainly have a stab at it and will but the relevant lawyers seem very slick with packages from A to D but no statistics forth coming on their specific success rate. General stats suggest just under 20% of appeals are successful.
Does anyone have any experience of these services, guidance or suggestions. I'm happy enough to represent us to a panel but I think I'll get the solicitors to write the primary grounds for appeal, basically we are in primary catchment but school is over subscribed and our number didn't come up, however 10% of appeals to this school are successful. Any experience or advice would be great.
What are the reasons for alternatives not being an option?
First question is have they offered you a place at your catchment school?
Was the school was offered one of the your 3 choice schools?
Did you select 3 choice schools or did you got for 1 or 2?
I assume its secondary and I was under the impression they didn't use siblings for this but it might be just somerset county.
Why is the school not an option.
I didn't get the school we wanted for my daughter when she started primary as we are in the middle of two primarys and the other side of a road to be catchment for the one we wanted.
Basically reglious grounds can work but not a great argument (not if one of your prefered schools is the same religion though).
Normally you need to prove that they have applied the over subsription criteria incorrectly.
How far is the school?
Was the school was offered one of the your 3 choice schools?
Did you select 3 choice schools or did you got for 1 or 2?
I assume its secondary and I was under the impression they didn't use siblings for this but it might be just somerset county.
Why is the school not an option.
I didn't get the school we wanted for my daughter when she started primary as we are in the middle of two primarys and the other side of a road to be catchment for the one we wanted.
Basically reglious grounds can work but not a great argument (not if one of your prefered schools is the same religion though).
Normally you need to prove that they have applied the over subsription criteria incorrectly.
How far is the school?
surveyor_101 said:
First question is have they offered you a place at your catchment school?
Was the school was offered one of the your 3 choice schools?
Did you select 3 choice schools or did you got for 1 or 2?
I assume its secondary and I was under the impression they didn't use siblings for this but it might be just somerset county.
Why is the school not an option.
I didn't get the school we wanted for my daughter when she started primary as we are in the middle of two primarys and the other side of a road to be catchment for the one we wanted.
Basically reglious grounds can work but not a great argument (not if one of your prefered schools is the same religion though).
Normally you need to prove that they have applied the over subsription criteria incorrectly.
How far is the school?
We were offered school that wasn't on our selected list of 3. We are in the catchment but it had one too many stabbings last year for my liking literally I'm afraid, terrible results and attendance, simply a very bad school. Was the school was offered one of the your 3 choice schools?
Did you select 3 choice schools or did you got for 1 or 2?
I assume its secondary and I was under the impression they didn't use siblings for this but it might be just somerset county.
Why is the school not an option.
I didn't get the school we wanted for my daughter when she started primary as we are in the middle of two primarys and the other side of a road to be catchment for the one we wanted.
Basically reglious grounds can work but not a great argument (not if one of your prefered schools is the same religion though).
Normally you need to prove that they have applied the over subsription criteria incorrectly.
How far is the school?
Our favoured school has and does change it's mind every year in some cases. My son is mixed race and we are very close to the good school. My preferred school is very racially mixed and the offered school is more white so a bullying angle is possible but as stated he won't be going there. The new Cathedral school is not a bad plan b but I don't like leaving things to chance. Thiers was an indepenent application not our local council. Thanks for the reply.
TooMany2cvs said:
Jaroon said:
The school offered is not an option.
"I don't like it" does not mean it isn't an option.It's an option I will not be taking.
Jaroon said:
basically we are in primary catchment but school is over subscribed and our number didn't come up
Whose child would you want to be "bounced" to make room for yours?Do you have any experience of solicitors in this aspect as per my OP are are you just pointlessly pipping up as usual TooManyposts?
Edited by Jaroon on Friday 2nd March 11:27
We're sadly in the same boat with our daughter of not getting the preferred school, although we were offered one, one she is not keen on.
problem for us, is our preferred school is only 6 miles away, but in neighbouring authorities area, as we are on border. last october, we had meeting with the head there who said it was likely that we would not get it offered initially, but to appeal and they "would be able to get her in if she really wanted to come". it is similar to your cathedral school, but a bit older.
Called them yesterday and was told a very different story, over subscribed due to all the housebuilding round here, and they painted a very dismal picture.
Quite difficult, daughter is being very pragmatic about it, (she's far from a drama queen!), but it is a massive shame, it would have really suited her and she'd have flourished there.
I am going to try to get a meeting with the Head teacher again, to see if there is anything we can do to proceed, but realistically we have no grounds to appeal from what i can see, as there is no option to appeal on the basis that you really like the school and what they do, and really want to go there despite it being in another LA area.
School my daughter is at now has 95 kids in whole school and she has been offered a place at a school with the Yr 7 intake being 265!! It will be a big shock for her.
problem for us, is our preferred school is only 6 miles away, but in neighbouring authorities area, as we are on border. last october, we had meeting with the head there who said it was likely that we would not get it offered initially, but to appeal and they "would be able to get her in if she really wanted to come". it is similar to your cathedral school, but a bit older.
Called them yesterday and was told a very different story, over subscribed due to all the housebuilding round here, and they painted a very dismal picture.
Quite difficult, daughter is being very pragmatic about it, (she's far from a drama queen!), but it is a massive shame, it would have really suited her and she'd have flourished there.
I am going to try to get a meeting with the Head teacher again, to see if there is anything we can do to proceed, but realistically we have no grounds to appeal from what i can see, as there is no option to appeal on the basis that you really like the school and what they do, and really want to go there despite it being in another LA area.
School my daughter is at now has 95 kids in whole school and she has been offered a place at a school with the Yr 7 intake being 265!! It will be a big shock for her.
Jaroon said:
Don't care, but it doesn't work like that you "pratt" the school must demonstrate that an extra child will have an adverse effect on the other children or that a mistake has not been made in applying the criteria,
Do you have any experience of solicitors in this aspect as per my OP are are you just pointlessly pipping up as usual TooManyposts?
We thought the same but I am not sure what they can do. Anything that a solicitor could work with is surely covered by the box 1 appeal, ie an appeal based on mandatory errors made? Do you have any experience of solicitors in this aspect as per my OP are are you just pointlessly pipping up as usual TooManyposts?
Edited by Jaroon on Friday 2nd March 11:27
poo at Paul's said:
We thought the same but I am not sure what they can do. Anything that a solicitor could work with is surely covered by the box 1 appeal, ie an appeal based on mandatory errors made?
You can appeal and use the race angle, also if you didn't get your catchment school then they have to prove the have applied the over subscribition criteria correctly.Not aware of people using a solictor or needing one its an appeals process. Is the school you want further distance wise than the school you got?
Not sure if someone can advise on race card as being a good one. Unless the school has a history I can't imagine its a great argument.
Thanks surveyor and sorry to hear your trouble poo.
Our preferred school is closer than the offered school. The appeal is a bit of a Hail Mary as the criteria does state if over subscribed it is literally a lottery so not sure how a lottery can be shown to be misapplied. Liking or not liking a school are not grounds but religious, social or bullying can be used. The fact that every year appeals do work gives me some hope.
As a catchment area 1 student, in a normal year 80% plus get a place but this is an extraordinary year with 8 to 1 for catchment 2 and 4 to 1 for catchment 1 so there will be many other disappointed families.
We get our first meet and greet with the head of the new school (this will be the founding year) on March 7th where we'll meet other parents as well, this will either alleviate or exacerbate my anxiety. In any event I will lodge two appeals. One for our preferred school and and for our third choice, a good school but will require us to move into the catchment area (so long XFR
hello boxster 
). Should we take the moving house option I'll have to have our house on the market and at least a six month rental agreement in the catchment area with evidence for the appeal panel.
Our preferred school is closer than the offered school. The appeal is a bit of a Hail Mary as the criteria does state if over subscribed it is literally a lottery so not sure how a lottery can be shown to be misapplied. Liking or not liking a school are not grounds but religious, social or bullying can be used. The fact that every year appeals do work gives me some hope.
As a catchment area 1 student, in a normal year 80% plus get a place but this is an extraordinary year with 8 to 1 for catchment 2 and 4 to 1 for catchment 1 so there will be many other disappointed families.
We get our first meet and greet with the head of the new school (this will be the founding year) on March 7th where we'll meet other parents as well, this will either alleviate or exacerbate my anxiety. In any event I will lodge two appeals. One for our preferred school and and for our third choice, a good school but will require us to move into the catchment area (so long XFR
hello boxster ). Should we take the moving house option I'll have to have our house on the market and at least a six month rental agreement in the catchment area with evidence for the appeal panel.Edited by Jaroon on Friday 2nd March 12:56
Having been through the process I don't think a solicitor is needed (unless you are appealing on process grounds).
You'll need to make a case why you child isn't suitable for the selected school, are they vulnerable, history of anxiety, etc.
The actual appeal isn't too bad, the school makes the case why you cant attend and then you get to make your case, both sides can question each other. The panel of 3 at our case was 2 ex-teachers and 1 lay person and it was very freindly and more "meeting like" than "Court like".
You'll need to make a case why you child isn't suitable for the selected school, are they vulnerable, history of anxiety, etc.
The actual appeal isn't too bad, the school makes the case why you cant attend and then you get to make your case, both sides can question each other. The panel of 3 at our case was 2 ex-teachers and 1 lay person and it was very freindly and more "meeting like" than "Court like".
Jaroon said:
Don't care, but it doesn't work like that you "pratt" the school must demonstrate that an extra child will have an adverse effect on the other children or that a mistake has not been made in applying the criteria,
If they are at their PAN they do not have to prove anything. PAN is Pupil Admission Number, the maximum they can be required to take.There are people who specialise in appeals process I know of one family who used the distance to travel to get there daughter in to the "right school" they hired someone to look at there case and take it to tribunal, they said it was money well spent as they know all the nuances of the council/school acceptance procedure.
Thank you for the useful posts folks. At the moment my plan is to assess the new school next week, whilst engaging a legal service to examine our case on our preferred school and the other school, that would require a house move I'll represent us as it should be a case of once we can prove we are in catchment a place should be forth coming, obviously I'll get assurances before a final move.
Any more views, experiences or legal advice gratefully received.
I know a good kid can thrive in a poor school and a good school far from guarantees a happy childhood, I'm also keeping my anxieties well hidden from my lad whose attitude is great, certainly compared to mine at his age, he'll go happily where ever we send him, no arguments.
Any more views, experiences or legal advice gratefully received.
I know a good kid can thrive in a poor school and a good school far from guarantees a happy childhood, I'm also keeping my anxieties well hidden from my lad whose attitude is great, certainly compared to mine at his age, he'll go happily where ever we send him, no arguments.
WestyCarl said:
Having been through the process I don't think a solicitor is needed (unless you are appealing on process grounds).
You'll need to make a case why you child isn't suitable for the selected school, are they vulnerable, history of anxiety, etc.
The actual appeal isn't too bad, the school makes the case why you cant attend and then you get to make your case, both sides can question each other. The panel of 3 at our case was 2 ex-teachers and 1 lay person and it was very freindly and more "meeting like" than "Court like".
That's very interesting thanks Westy. I doubt I'll be able to say the selected school isn't fit for purpose so I'll look at the specifics of the violent incidents and see if they were directed at a minority group.You'll need to make a case why you child isn't suitable for the selected school, are they vulnerable, history of anxiety, etc.
The actual appeal isn't too bad, the school makes the case why you cant attend and then you get to make your case, both sides can question each other. The panel of 3 at our case was 2 ex-teachers and 1 lay person and it was very freindly and more "meeting like" than "Court like".
The process may be something we can look at as there is both a lottery element but an NVR pre-selection test was required to categorize the children to ensure a balance of abilities. I did some digging and we did some practice, this was of less than no use as my lad had certain expectations and the test was very different so we may be able to suggest he was miss categorized. Hardly grounds to over turn a decision but added to other points might be worth mentioning.
The offer school is a drive and our preferred school is a walk, which once he is doing on his own we can nearly watch him door to door across the green. I'm a shift worker (train driver) so will not be able to do many school runs. I wonder if my partners lack of driving license may be of help. Ok a few things to mull over, thanks again.
We've been fortunate in that 2 of our children managed to get the 1st choice, number 3 is only starting primary in Sept so have sometime to worry about her.
We did a little research in case we had to appeal and most of this has already been covered.
But, in the meantime put your child on the waiting list for your preferred school ASAP. It's a long shot but one or two pupils may not accept their offered place so you could get lucky.
We did a little research in case we had to appeal and most of this has already been covered.
But, in the meantime put your child on the waiting list for your preferred school ASAP. It's a long shot but one or two pupils may not accept their offered place so you could get lucky.
Edited by NeilB12 on Friday 2nd March 18:51
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