DVLA sale confirmation slips and the law around them?
Discussion
Hi,
In a spot of bother with some bailiffs at the moment. The case revolves around a Micra and two house moves.
I bought a Micra in August 2016 as a stopgap while I built my project car. I registered it in my name, taxed it and insured it as anyone else would. I then sold it around the end of September 2016 and moved address around the same time; there was perhaps a 3-4 day overlap between these two events. As the Micra was registered to a now defunct address (and I had of course sold the car and sent the V5 off so had nothing to update the address onto, nor did I feel it would be necessary), I was not aware of any documentation sent after the sale, which meant I did not know whether or not a sale confirmation slip had been sent nor any court documentation that would have come from it.
The Micra was sold locally, and in February 2017 I became aware that the gearbox input shaft snapped and it was subsequently scrapped.
I then moved address again in September 2017.
Earlier this month, I received a bailiff letter to my new address demanding £660. I contacted the bailiffs and I was told the offence was related to the Nissan Micra, and had come about due to the DVLA recording it as not being taxed in March 2017; almost 6 months after I had sold it. The bailiff had independently tracked me to my new address; the DVLA had sent all correspondence to my 2016 address. I contacted the DVLA and found that the Micra had not been registered as sold or scrapped and as such was still found to be in my name and registered as an untaxed, uninsured vehicle that had not been SORN.
I have applied for a statutory declaration to say that I never received the court documentation due to the house move in order to take the matter out of the bailiff's hands and back into the courts; if successful, I will then have the opportunity to plead guilty or not guilty to the original offence. I'm currently waiting on notification that I have an appointment to make the declaration.
The fact of the matter is I did not own the vehicle during the time of the offence. However as far as I'm aware, unless I can prove I received a sale confirmation slip, I am still liable as the onus was on me to ensure that the vehicle had been registered as having changed keepers. My question is what are the actual, solid and concrete legalities around this. It seems strange to me that legal papers can be seen under the law as served if they are posted via 2nd class royal mail to the correct address, yet the same does not apply to the sending of a V5.
Should I plead guilty, take a discounted fine on the chin and move on? Or should I fight the charge on the basis that I did not own the car at the time of the offence? Do I have a legal recourse for not chasing up the new keeper slip?
Some loose searching has revealed cases from years ago where people fought the dvla based on not correctly registering cars as sold and winning however these are old forum posts. I am not in a position to pay for legal advice nor do I expect anyone to give fully versed legal advice for free, however whatever experience or knowledge people can or are willing to offer would be helpful.
In a spot of bother with some bailiffs at the moment. The case revolves around a Micra and two house moves.
I bought a Micra in August 2016 as a stopgap while I built my project car. I registered it in my name, taxed it and insured it as anyone else would. I then sold it around the end of September 2016 and moved address around the same time; there was perhaps a 3-4 day overlap between these two events. As the Micra was registered to a now defunct address (and I had of course sold the car and sent the V5 off so had nothing to update the address onto, nor did I feel it would be necessary), I was not aware of any documentation sent after the sale, which meant I did not know whether or not a sale confirmation slip had been sent nor any court documentation that would have come from it.
The Micra was sold locally, and in February 2017 I became aware that the gearbox input shaft snapped and it was subsequently scrapped.
I then moved address again in September 2017.
Earlier this month, I received a bailiff letter to my new address demanding £660. I contacted the bailiffs and I was told the offence was related to the Nissan Micra, and had come about due to the DVLA recording it as not being taxed in March 2017; almost 6 months after I had sold it. The bailiff had independently tracked me to my new address; the DVLA had sent all correspondence to my 2016 address. I contacted the DVLA and found that the Micra had not been registered as sold or scrapped and as such was still found to be in my name and registered as an untaxed, uninsured vehicle that had not been SORN.
I have applied for a statutory declaration to say that I never received the court documentation due to the house move in order to take the matter out of the bailiff's hands and back into the courts; if successful, I will then have the opportunity to plead guilty or not guilty to the original offence. I'm currently waiting on notification that I have an appointment to make the declaration.
The fact of the matter is I did not own the vehicle during the time of the offence. However as far as I'm aware, unless I can prove I received a sale confirmation slip, I am still liable as the onus was on me to ensure that the vehicle had been registered as having changed keepers. My question is what are the actual, solid and concrete legalities around this. It seems strange to me that legal papers can be seen under the law as served if they are posted via 2nd class royal mail to the correct address, yet the same does not apply to the sending of a V5.
Should I plead guilty, take a discounted fine on the chin and move on? Or should I fight the charge on the basis that I did not own the car at the time of the offence? Do I have a legal recourse for not chasing up the new keeper slip?
Some loose searching has revealed cases from years ago where people fought the dvla based on not correctly registering cars as sold and winning however these are old forum posts. I am not in a position to pay for legal advice nor do I expect anyone to give fully versed legal advice for free, however whatever experience or knowledge people can or are willing to offer would be helpful.
Gooly said:
Should I plead guilty, take a discounted fine on the chin and move on?.
Not sure I would do this. Who knows what else might follow i.e. speeding tickets, parking fines all sent to wrong address etc. Once you have admitted the car was in your possession you have no get out of jail cardtony wright said:
Not sure I would do this. Who knows what else might follow i.e. speeding tickets, parking fines all sent to wrong address etc. Once you have admitted the car was in your possession you have no get out of jail card
This is my thinking also, beyond the fact that the idea of paying a fine for something which i didnt do is painful in itselfNickyboy said:
Mail redirection? How come communications didn't get to you if you had this
I didn't have mail redirectionYou have fulfilled your legal obligation by sending off the v5 when you sold the car. There is no obligation to wait for a confirmation slip or anything from the dvla.
Under the interpretations act your posted v5 will count as being delivered the day after it was posted.
You need to tell the dvla this and tell them you will fight it in court - if they have any sense they will back down as they won't have a leg to stand on in court.
I was in exactly the same position as you a few years back and after making a statutory declararion I wrote to the dvla and informed them I had fulfilled my legal obligation by posting off the v5 and I quoted the relevant section of the interpretations act (I forget the section number) and they immediately accepted my explanation and cancelled all their actions.
The only reason they are chasing you is because they have not had any explanation as to why it wasn't taxed.
Under the interpretations act your posted v5 will count as being delivered the day after it was posted.
You need to tell the dvla this and tell them you will fight it in court - if they have any sense they will back down as they won't have a leg to stand on in court.
I was in exactly the same position as you a few years back and after making a statutory declararion I wrote to the dvla and informed them I had fulfilled my legal obligation by posting off the v5 and I quoted the relevant section of the interpretations act (I forget the section number) and they immediately accepted my explanation and cancelled all their actions.
The only reason they are chasing you is because they have not had any explanation as to why it wasn't taxed.
Nickyboy said:
Why not? How did you get any mail the day you moved out?
I've never set up redirection when moving, mainly student days when a lot went to my parents, and having been here six years I would now. But almost everything is online now. Most of what I get through the letterbox is junk.
Daniel
I had this years ago sold a GT6, we filled out the V5 on the roof of the car on my drive, I had no record of the buyers address apart from the V5, sent it off. Then I started to get notice of parking fines, I wrote saying I had sold the car, by the +20th I just stopped replying and I had a letter with a date to go to court, I had had so many letters that several had been replied to by registered mail.
The court notice was signed by a Superintendent Lamb, i phoned him and after getting past his secretary and telling him my story, he realized i was DVLC inaction, and he changed completely, told me he would sort out DVLC,and sounded like he was going to enjoy it.last I heard was a letter saying the court date had bee cancelled.
I'd plead not guilty and see them in court.
The court notice was signed by a Superintendent Lamb, i phoned him and after getting past his secretary and telling him my story, he realized i was DVLC inaction, and he changed completely, told me he would sort out DVLC,and sounded like he was going to enjoy it.last I heard was a letter saying the court date had bee cancelled.
I'd plead not guilty and see them in court.
For a while now, I've registered the sale of a car online. It's been going since 2015 I think.
There's no doubt DVLA know then because they email acknowledgement. Same goes for taxing the car.
As long as you put the new owners name and address on the V5c when you posted it off, it's not your problem. It is strange however, that you are under no obligation to ask for proof or id. Worth noting the address down though. The new owner could put down a fictitious name and address.
They do make mistakes down in Swansea. A lot of them judging by posts on here! I once got a red letter for back tax of a motorcycle that I had registered SORN 4 months before. Keeping the email I received from them cleared it up quickly.
There's no doubt DVLA know then because they email acknowledgement. Same goes for taxing the car.
As long as you put the new owners name and address on the V5c when you posted it off, it's not your problem. It is strange however, that you are under no obligation to ask for proof or id. Worth noting the address down though. The new owner could put down a fictitious name and address.
They do make mistakes down in Swansea. A lot of them judging by posts on here! I once got a red letter for back tax of a motorcycle that I had registered SORN 4 months before. Keeping the email I received from them cleared it up quickly.
Hi said:
You have fulfilled your legal obligation by sending off the v5 when you sold the car. There is no obligation to wait for a confirmation slip or anything from the dvla.
Under the interpretations act your posted v5 will count as being delivered the day after it was posted.
You need to tell the dvla this and tell them you will fight it in court - if they have any sense they will back down as they won't have a leg to stand on in court.
I was in exactly the same position as you a few years back and after making a statutory declararion I wrote to the dvla and informed them I had fulfilled my legal obligation by posting off the v5 and I quoted the relevant section of the interpretations act (I forget the section number) and they immediately accepted my explanation and cancelled all their actions.
The only reason they are chasing you is because they have not had any explanation as to why it wasn't taxed.
Great thank you, I have booked in a stat dec and will do this after it. I'll find the section number etcUnder the interpretations act your posted v5 will count as being delivered the day after it was posted.
You need to tell the dvla this and tell them you will fight it in court - if they have any sense they will back down as they won't have a leg to stand on in court.
I was in exactly the same position as you a few years back and after making a statutory declararion I wrote to the dvla and informed them I had fulfilled my legal obligation by posting off the v5 and I quoted the relevant section of the interpretations act (I forget the section number) and they immediately accepted my explanation and cancelled all their actions.
The only reason they are chasing you is because they have not had any explanation as to why it wasn't taxed.
Nickyboy said:
Why not? How did you get any mail the day you moved out?
I notified everyone who had reason to send me mail, ie my bank, the DVLA for my drivers licence, my work, etc, as I have done for the last 3 years at uni. It's common for students to move each year and I don't know anyone who sets up mail redirection these days so I never really saw it as being worth the money, something which seems to be legally accepted given how common statutory declarations are in situations such as this.ianwayne said:
For a while now, I've registered the sale of a car online. It's been going since 2015 I think.
There's no doubt DVLA know then because they email acknowledgement. Same goes for taxing the car.
As long as you put the new owners name and address on the V5c when you posted it off, it's not your problem. It is strange however, that you are under no obligation to ask for proof or id. Worth noting the address down though. The new owner could put down a fictitious name and address.
They do make mistakes down in Swansea. A lot of them judging by posts on here! I once got a red letter for back tax of a motorcycle that I had registered SORN 4 months before. Keeping the email I received from them cleared it up quickly.
They do indeed, and this unfortunately isn't the first time I've fallen fowl of administration errors from them.There's no doubt DVLA know then because they email acknowledgement. Same goes for taxing the car.
As long as you put the new owners name and address on the V5c when you posted it off, it's not your problem. It is strange however, that you are under no obligation to ask for proof or id. Worth noting the address down though. The new owner could put down a fictitious name and address.
They do make mistakes down in Swansea. A lot of them judging by posts on here! I once got a red letter for back tax of a motorcycle that I had registered SORN 4 months before. Keeping the email I received from them cleared it up quickly.
Will keep this updated with how the stat dec and subsequent appeal goes.
280E said:
Gooly said:
....and this unfortunately isn't the first time I've fallen fowl of administration errors from them...
Good to see the university system is delivering the goods
To other posters, I do have a handwritten sale reciept but I can’t imagine its worth much cop in court. Will bring it along nonetheless. I also have the name and address of the person who bought it off me and the bloke who scrapped it.
Did have a search but wanted an answer that was tailored to this case as there are a few specificities which didn’t apply to the examples I found, but yes it was on that basis that I applied for a stat dec in the first place
I appreciate all the useful replies and I’ll keep this updated with the outcome in case anyone is in a similar position in future.
Edited by Gooly on Sunday 25th March 12:09
As others have said if you filled and posted the changes to DVLA you fulfilled your obligation.
Hasn't this had several cases in various courts where the DVLA were told to sort itself out .
Is it strange that nobody ever reports instances of the DVLA chasing people for similar offences only for them to say but it was done via recorded delivery. Does the recorded delivery paperwork go to a special department staffed by only the efficient staff ?
Hasn't this had several cases in various courts where the DVLA were told to sort itself out .
Is it strange that nobody ever reports instances of the DVLA chasing people for similar offences only for them to say but it was done via recorded delivery. Does the recorded delivery paperwork go to a special department staffed by only the efficient staff ?
There is a reference above to "the Interpretations Act". The relevant provision is section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 (there is no s on Interpretation). This has the effect that a document that has been posted is in most cases assumed to have reached its intended destination unless the contrary is proven.
"References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."
OP, all that you will need to do is assert that you posted the V5. If that assertion is convincing (and there is no reason why it should not be, then it would be for DVLA to prove that the V5 did not arrive. In future, as noted above, use the online notification system, which is quick and simple.
I may perhaps be lucky, but in almost 30 years of dealing with DVLA as a motorist I have only ever found it to be to be an efficient organisation, and since the online services were launched a while ago it seems fairly user friendly as government agencies go, but inevitably it will make some cock ups (and they all happen to people on PH).
"References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."
OP, all that you will need to do is assert that you posted the V5. If that assertion is convincing (and there is no reason why it should not be, then it would be for DVLA to prove that the V5 did not arrive. In future, as noted above, use the online notification system, which is quick and simple.
I may perhaps be lucky, but in almost 30 years of dealing with DVLA as a motorist I have only ever found it to be to be an efficient organisation, and since the online services were launched a while ago it seems fairly user friendly as government agencies go, but inevitably it will make some cock ups (and they all happen to people on PH).
dhutch said:
Nickyboy said:
Why not? How did you get any mail the day you moved out?
I've never set up redirection when moving, mainly student days when a lot went to my parents, and having been here six years I would now. But almost everything is online now. Most of what I get through the letterbox is junk.
Daniel
Anyone not setting up a redirect is just asking for trouble as you wouldn't even know important docs had been missed.
I also don't understand why anyone wouldn't notify the DVLA online now; I did it with my last car and had an immediate email notification followed by a confirmation slip in the post about a week later.
Gooly said:
Did have a search but wanted an answer that was tailored to this case as there are a few specificities which didn’t apply to the examples I found, but yes it was on that basis that I applied for a stat dec in the first place..
You've probably stumbled across it already but, if not, Liquid Knight's thread is worth a read.Breadvan72 said:
OP, all that you will need to do is assert that you posted the V5. If that assertion is convincing (and there is no reason why it should not be, then it would be for DVLA to prove that the V5 did not arrive. In future, as noted above, use the online notification system, which is quick and simple.
I may perhaps be lucky, but in almost 30 years of dealing with DVLA as a motorist I have only ever found it to be to be an efficient organisation, and since the online services were launched a while ago it seems fairly user friendly as government agencies go, but inevitably it will make some cock ups (and they all happen to people on PH).
Exactly what I was hoping to hear. Its a shame I didn't send it by recorded mail but this shouldn't prove an issue in court I assume? I have begun using the online notification system, at the time (2016) I didn't even know it existed! I've had a fair share of cars in the 6 years I've been driving and have generally found the DVLA to be easy to deal with but I have fallen foul of tax fines 4 times now, with only one of those times actually being due to an error on my part. Mistakes happen and I'm generally ambivalent about the DVLA as an organisation but nonetheless I do want to sort this out and they can be a frustrating organisation to deal with if they are trying to fine you.I may perhaps be lucky, but in almost 30 years of dealing with DVLA as a motorist I have only ever found it to be to be an efficient organisation, and since the online services were launched a while ago it seems fairly user friendly as government agencies go, but inevitably it will make some cock ups (and they all happen to people on PH).
SS2. said:
You've probably stumbled across it already but, if not, Liquid Knight's thread is worth a read.
I hadn't found this in my search, thank you! Makes for reassuring readingFunk said:
So much isn't junk. Like important stuff from the DVLA. Debit/credit cards and PINs. Council tax letters. Insurance documentation.
Anyone not setting up a redirect is just asking for trouble as you wouldn't even know important docs had been missed.
I also don't understand why anyone wouldn't notify the DVLA online now; I did it with my last car and had an immediate email notification followed by a confirmation slip in the post about a week later.
I generally just notify any organisation that would need to contact me, including my bank, the DVLA for my licence, the V5 for a car which I'm keeping, etc etc. Never really had an issue before and 90% of any important mail is emailed to me these days anyhow. There may be arguments for setting up mail redirection for some people but I don't think this case is one of them; I think it's reasonable to assume that when a V5 is posted to the DVLA, they will process it as they usually do.Anyone not setting up a redirect is just asking for trouble as you wouldn't even know important docs had been missed.
I also don't understand why anyone wouldn't notify the DVLA online now; I did it with my last car and had an immediate email notification followed by a confirmation slip in the post about a week later.
I now do keeper transfers online, I wasn't aware this was even an option in 2016 when I sold this micra though.
Edited by Gooly on Sunday 25th March 16:36
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