Returning a used car

[George Smiley]

Yes, one of these threads.

The car is an approved used Porsche, owned for approx 8 months. Really love the car but lost confidence in the ability to make a long (or even short journey) without fear of a failure which places myself and others in danger.

It has been in and out of Porsche approx 5 or 6 times and in total for almost 8 weeks of fixes. All the faults are dealt with under the AUP warranty and service has been faultless but its getting worse

Faults:
1. Driving on motorway car loses all power, pull over and car taken in - faulty coil pack
2. Powersteering suddenly fails, pull over - new power steering pump
3. Engine cuts out on motorway, lose all electrics, lose power steering, fortunately in the left hand lane, pull over - new fuel pump
4. Driving today, just as I was slowing down to enter a busy roundabout, reduced engine power mode then car stalls and stops. Unable to start. Fortunately after 10 minutes it starts - drove home to be collected tomorrow.

It is getting worse and yes I want to play the won't somebody think of the children card because the way the faults happen without any warning and the last two being the most worrying. Looking through all the paperwork I found an old service receipt that shows Porsche fitted a new engine to the car shortly before I bought it from them - that wasn't disclosed to me and it definitely would have made a bearing on the negotiation but not necessarily put me off.

I paid for the car mostly outright but put a small amount onto finance to get a perceived better discount so there is some finance on it (whether that offers additional protection?). Finance is the HP type.

I really like the car, it is as highly spec'd as I've ever seen so finding another one will be hard. I have put 10k on the car so I'm not wanting to get my original money back but what, if any, rights do I have to get them to take it back?

I'm going to see the dealer principal to talk about the situation and they offer a buy your car scheme but here I don't want to sell but the position is I see no option as its been off the road for near two months in total, is costing them a fortune in warranty claims and clearly something is not right nor safe with the increasing way in which faults are occuring - just lost the faith.

Definitely would stay with the brand its just I think the car is turning out to be a Lemmon.

[Helicopter123]

George Smiley said:

Yes, one of these threads.

The car is an approved used Porsche, owned for approx 8 months. Really love the car but lost confidence in the ability to make a long (or even short journey) without fear of a failure which places myself and others in danger.

It has been in and out of Porsche approx 5 or 6 times and in total for almost 8 weeks of fixes. All the faults are dealt with under the AUP warranty and service has been faultless but its getting worse

Faults:
1. Driving on motorway car loses all power, pull over and car taken in - faulty coil pack
2. Powersteering suddenly fails, pull over - new power steering pump
3. Engine cuts out on motorway, lose all electrics, lose power steering, fortunately in the left hand lane, pull over - new fuel pump
4. Driving today, just as I was slowing down to enter a busy roundabout, reduced engine power mode then car stalls and stops. Unable to start. Fortunately after 10 minutes it starts - drove home to be collected tomorrow.

It is getting worse and yes I want to play the won't somebody think of the children card because the way the faults happen without any warning and the last two being the most worrying. Looking through all the paperwork I found an old service receipt that shows Porsche fitted a new engine to the car shortly before I bought it from them - that wasn't disclosed to me and it definitely would have made a bearing on the negotiation but not necessarily put me off.

I paid for the car mostly outright but put a small amount onto finance to get a perceived better discount so there is some finance on it (whether that offers additional protection?). Finance is the HP type.

I really like the car, it is as highly spec'd as I've ever seen so finding another one will be hard. I have put 10k on the car so I'm not wanting to get my original money back but what, if any, rights do I have to get them to take it back?

I'm going to see the dealer principal to talk about the situation and they offer a buy your car scheme but here I don't want to sell but the position is I see no option as its been off the road for near two months in total, is costing them a fortune in warranty claims and clearly something is not right nor safe with the increasing way in which faults are occuring - just lost the faith.

Definitely would stay with the brand its just I think the car is turning out to be a Lemmon.

Trade it against another one?

[Wacky Racer]

Cutting out on the motorway must be terrifying, specially on these idiotic smart motorways with lorries coming up behind at 60mph.

Good luck with your meeting, and don't be fobbed off.

[Steve H]

Sounds like unrelated faults from what you're saying and they have been prompt with fixes that have worked first time. IANAL but it's hard to see a legal case there.

And a new engine is considered to be added value with a lot of Porkers...........

[George Smiley]

WR - yes, not fun and certainly not something I would want happen with family on board. Not safe for other road users either. Dont want to be a drama queen over it but it simply isnt safe.

Hellicopter - I want to stay in the fold but dont want to be offered a part-ex. I want to be essentially in a position where I return the car but allow for a reasonable adjustment due to the additional miles I have put on the car.

Hopefully I can do that but I'd like to know if I have any protection under SOGA or the credit acts to help with making sure I do not get fobbed off.

To some it isnt a huge amount of cash but it was still a significant outlay.

[George Smiley]

Steve H said:

Sounds like unrelated faults from what you're saying and they have been prompt with fixes that have worked first time. IANAL but it's hard to see a legal case there.

And a new engine is considered to be added value with a lot of Porkers...........

Unreleated maybe but for a car to suffer a spate of major faults and they have all started in rapid succession? A new engine on a 997 may be a benefit but the v8's arent supposed to suffer IMS faults etc.

A new engine, new powersteering pump, new fule pump and god knows what else and the fact that I get the car back and within a week something else puts me off the road. Since the new year I've had the car on the road a total of 6 weeks max.

If it was a 2 grand used ford Focus I'd have less of an issue in trying to get it done but at what point do you call a lemon a lemon?

[I like Hands up deals]

Has the vehicle suffered from the same fault each time? edit: sorry didn't read the original post correctly (different issues)

If so you'll have a very good case for rejecting the vehicle, especially if it's been in 6 times.

The finance company will hold responsibility too, so if the dealer doesn't play ball, getting the finance company involved usually produces a satisfactory outcome. The finance company has a responsibility to provide a vehicle that is fit for purpose.

Normally a dealership is given ample chances to rectify a fault, if the fault has been the same and they've had the vehicle back 6 times (as you say) you've got a very strong case.

One thing that does work against you is length of ownership, ideally you'd have started the "rejection process" within 6 months. A vehicle having to return to the dealership 6 times within 6 months is excessive. Why didn't you consider rejecting the vehicle sooner?

Edited by I like Hands up deals on Sunday 8th April 23:27

[George Smiley]

Thinking about finance, I think its personal finance via the dealership not HP.

The 1st, 2nd and 3rd fault seem related. The powersteering not so much.

First time they claimed it was a coil pack. Fault 3 and fault 4 demonstrated the exact same behaviour but on the 2nd time they said it was the fuel pump (this was a week after picking it up for the power steering fault).

Today the exact same fault occurred as the time they said it was the fuel pump. It seems more likely there is a fault in the loom somewhere. It has also been in a few times for an intermittent fault where it claims the coolant is low/empty despite being fine (when turning round large radius roundabouts.

Thanks for replies so far

[Charlie Croker mk2]

Not a chance of returning the car ! Dealer has repaired the faults ( I presume under warranty ? )
You might get a perceive enhanced trade in or they could buy it from you for stock at the current trade value -- which being Porsche could be quite strong . If you were doing this 8 days in rather than 8 months you would be OK but best advise would be to iron out all the bugs and enjoy the drive LOL

[George Smiley]

I like Hands up deals said:

Has the vehicle suffered from the same fault each time? edit: sorry didn't read the original post correctly (different issues)

If so you'll have a very good case for rejecting the vehicle, especially if it's been in 6 times.

The finance company will hold responsibility too, so if the dealer doesn't play ball, getting the finance company involved usually produces a satisfactory outcome. The finance company has a responsibility to provide a vehicle that is fit for purpose.

Normally a dealership is given ample chances to rectify a fault, if the fault has been the same and they've had the vehicle back 6 times (as you say) you've got a very strong case.

One thing that does work against you is length of ownership, ideally you'd have started the "rejection process" within 6 months. A vehicle having to return to the dealership 6 times within 6 months is excessive. Why didn't you consider rejecting the vehicle sooner?

Edited by I like Hands up deals on Sunday 8th April 23:27

The first fault was reported within the 3rd or 4th month, I wasnt in a position to want to reject the car then as faults happen they took it in, took great care of me even though it took 3 weeks to change a coil pack.

[George Smiley]

Charlie Croker mk2 said:

Not a chance of returning the car ! Dealer has repaired the faults ( I presume under warranty ? )
You might get a perceive enhanced trade in or they could buy it from you for stock at the current trade value -- which being Porsche could be quite strong . If you were doing this 8 days in rather than 8 months you would be OK but best advise would be to iron out all the bugs and enjoy the drive LOL

one fault, yes.
a 2nd unrelated, maybe

but a 3rd, a 4th, all taking you off the road for 2 months no, it isnt acceptable really and it isnt safe. Would you spend X amount and think hey its ok its under warranty just keep getting it fixed at leisure?

[Jurassic pork]

If Porsche won't accept a rejection then the finance company is your next step.

You're past the 'legal' rejection stage but due to persistent problems I would be pushing Porsche for a refund. If you get it all, that's a bonus, I'd expect them to knock some off due to the small amount of use you have had.

If Porsche don't play ball, the finance company are your next step and will get this sorted for you.

[Jurassic pork]

I see you have mentioned personal finance, do you mean a personal loan, or is the finance secured against the car, if the latter, then hit the finance company, if the dealership signed you up for a personal loan then it's a no go.

[I like Hands up deals]

George Smiley said:

The first fault was reported within the 3rd or 4th month, I wasnt in a position to want to reject the car then as faults happen they took it in, took great care of me even though it took 3 weeks to change a coil pack.

The best advice I can give you is to call 03454 04 05 06 (formerly consumer direct), explain the circumstances and they will tell you where you stand legally, and what "rights" you actually have.

It would also be very useful to find out what type of finance you actually have. An unsecured loan on the vehicle won't help much, a hire purchase secured on the vehicle will help, as the problem then becomes the finance companies too.

The next step would be a friendly call to the general sales manager to test the water i.e explain how you feel, and what your intentions are. The positive in all of this is that you say they've been very good with dealing with your issues, count yourself lucky (slightly) as some dealerships are absolutely terrible with this.

Based on the response you get, you could then go down the route of "exercising" any rights you have (based on what you're told by the consumer line). If you do infact have finance secured on the vehicle, and the dealership doesn't play ball, involving the finance company usually get's things moving.

As I said earlier the length of time you've had the vehicle is going to work against you in terms of rejecting the vehicle. Perhaps a realistic outcome is a "deal" on a part exchange towards a different vehicle. I'd say there's more chance of that happening than there is of simply handing the vehicle back.

Edited by I like Hands up deals on Sunday 8th April 23:50

[Ekona]

George Smiley said:

A new engine on a 997 may be a benefit but the v8's arent supposed to suffer IMS faults etc.

If they've put a V8 into it then I can see why that might cause a few issues

[George Smiley]

Ekona said:

George Smiley said:

A new engine on a 997 may be a benefit but the v8's arent supposed to suffer IMS faults etc.

If they've put a V8 into it then I can see why that might cause a few issues

Put it in the front too!

Jurrasic, thanks for the post - just checked and its HP so the finance company has an interest albeit a small proportion. They also have a handy phone line to call. Car hasn't been driven since I got home yesterday (latest issue was a mile from home and it started after 20 minutes of being a temporary island). Wont drive it either until it is sorted.

[hutchst]

You've missed out the 3 most important bits of information. How old is the car? How many miles has it done? How much did you pay for it?

Any rights you have are under CRA 2015 not the old Sale of Goods Act and are based on reasonable expectation, which might be an elusive concept to pin down in law. CRA does not mean that you are entitled to the same level of performance and reliability from a used car that you would get with a new one.

Your best bet may well be to negotiate the best deal you can from the seller if you want out, despite the advice you will no doubt get on here from the I know my rights brigade.

[The Rookie]

My son went through the finance company complaints and then the Financial Ombudsman and got his M135i bought back, repeated transmission and steering wheel wobble issues. Even got his front tyres (purchased as BMW said the wear was causing the wheel wobble) refunded.

Edited by The Rookie on Monday 9th April 12:55

[JimmyConwayNW]

I like Hands up deals said:

The best advice I can give you is to call 03454 04 05 06 (formerly consumer direct), explain the circumstances and they will tell you where you stand legally, and what "rights" you actually have.

Edited by I like Hands up deals on Sunday 8th April 23:50

They give out terrible advice and are not going to help this chap one bit.

[ging84]

You have not mentioned what car it is, Porsche do a lot of cars, your expectations from a robust family size luxury car like a cayenne will be very different to your expectations from something that is basically a race car for the road like a gt3 rs.