50 in 40 on smart motorway, chances of being prosecuted?

[jamei303]

I know this is over the 40+10%+2 guidelines, but I am wondering what are the chances of getting something in the post? If you have or haven't been charged with exceeding a 40 limit on a motorway it would be good to hear about it.

I had a pretty clear road in front, and I looked at the signs and was thinking what do they say, is that 60? Oh no, it's 40! I then checked my mirrors and had a wall of vehicles behind me happily doing 70 just like me. I braked to a gps 50 but didn't consider it safe to slow any more until after I had passed under gantry. Would happily do the same again but obviously there is no arguing with the law when it comes to speed cameras.

[Ninja59]

Firstly was there any flashes? (Or horizontal line markings under the gantry? (Although not 100% reliable as to camera location)

Secondly how many flashes? (It should be 2 if you have been caught)

Not every gantry has a HADECS system usually 3 now just off to the left of the gantry. You may come across some still on 2 though but the same method applies).

Chances are if none of the above have occurred ypu have got away with it. If they have happened then be expecting a NIP soon (unless you are in a vehicle not registered to you).

Next time look further ahead. Unfortunately these smart motorways dont always work logically with the next limit. Furthermore sometimes you have limits and then blank ones which produce confusion as to whether the limit is back to 70 (HADECS now enforces 70 as well).

[jamei303]

Ninja59 said:

Firstly was there any flashes? (Or horizontal line markings under the gantry? (Although not 100% reliable as to camera location)

So they invariably use flash even in daylight? Don't think I saw any flashes so should be ok I guess.

Ninja59 said:

Next time look further ahead. Unfortunately these smart motorways dont always work logically with the next limit.

I saw the red circles well in advance. It was bright sunlight and I started braking as soon as I could make out they read 40 and not 60. I wonder what the distance they are supposed to be readable in all conditions is? Certainly less than the distance a standard motorway 40 metal sign is. Nothing wrong with my eyesight so it's a bit concerning that sharp braking was required.

[BishBosh]

I was recently caught at 71 in a limited to 60 on a smart motorway (M1 Bedford to Luton stretch) received a NiP or invited to attend the new course in education on how smart motorways work. I had no idea that I’d been caught.

The course was/is only for individuals caught in one way or another on a smart motorway. You may get one too....

[mygoldfishbowl]

BishBosh said:

I was recently caught at 71 in a limited to 60 on a smart motorway (M1 Bedford to Luton stretch) received a NiP or invited to attend the new course in education on how smart motorways work. I had no idea that I’d been caught.

The course was/is only for individuals caught in one way or another on a smart motorway. You may get one too....

Wow, bet that'll be interesting.

[Ninja59]

jamei303 said:

I saw the red circles well in advance. It was bright sunlight and I started braking as soon as I could make out they read 40 and not 60. I wonder what the distance they are supposed to be readable in all conditions is? Certainly less than the distance a standard motorway 40 metal sign is. Nothing wrong with my eyesight so it's a bit concerning that sharp braking was required.

All HADECS systems flash twice if they have captured you speeding.

HADECS 3 is much more covert though than the previous generation version (HADECS 2) and covers all lanes in one direction. Some are painted yellow others still grey.

Most of the network now uses for enforcement purposes on smart motorways. It is a completely digital enforcement system so no films to anything. The HADECS 2 generation were more or less adjusted Gatso type applications with road markings, HADECS 3 no longer uses them.

Spot the speed cameras on both sides :



https://www.speedcamerasuk.com/hadecs-3.htm

The most clear bit with HADECS 3 is not actually the camera system itself on the left pole pf the gantry (which is fairly clear tbh), but the EAV bit which is used to tell the camera what the speed limit has been set at prior to the actual camera (left portion of the picture with the 3 bits on the pole).

Edited by Ninja59 on Tuesday 15th May 06:52

[giantdefy]

Ninja59 said:

The most clear bit with HADECS 3 is not actually the camera system itself on the left pole pf the gantry (which is fairly clear tbh), but the EAV bit which is used to tell the camera what the speed limit has been set at prior to the actual camera (left portion of the picture with the 3 bits on the pole).

The EAV (external aspect verification) cameras don't 'tell the camera what the speed limit has been set' they just record the displayed limit at the time of any capture.

[Gafferjim]

Also, If the gantry showed a speed limit of 40 mph, then the gantry prior to that would have had either 60 mph or even 50 mph, (That's how the system works) so not being able to slow down in time is not an excuse.

[Ninja59]

giantdefy said:

The EAV (external aspect verification) cameras don't 'tell the camera what the speed limit has been set' they just record the displayed limit at the time of any capture.

That is not what Redflex (the manufacturers) state. Although it can be used for evidence purposes should someone fight it.

"A pole-mounted external aspect verification (EAV) system located in advance of the motorway variable message signs (VMS) monitors changes to the enforceable speed limit display and alerts the camera system to set new enforcing speed limit thresholds accordingly. "

http://www.redflex.com/en-au/news/media-library/ho...

[Ninja59]

Gafferjim said:

Also, If the gantry showed a speed limit of 40 mph, then the gantry prior to that would have had either 60 mph or even 50 mph, (That's how the system works) so not being able to slow down in time is not an excuse.

Does not explain how some have come across them going 60,50,40 (as you state), then 60 to 40? (In fact I have seen that!)

Additionally it does not explain the odd one where one lane oddly shows a random figure whilst others are blank.

Simple fact is the policies and procedures state it should not happen when a number of drivers have come across situations where the smart motorways are not being managed properly!

[jamei303]

Gafferjim said:

Also, If the gantry showed a speed limit of 40 mph, then the gantry prior to that would have had either 60 mph or even 50 mph, (That's how the system works) so not being able to slow down in time is not an excuse.

Not true. There was no limit on the previous gantry followed by a forty. The reason was an emergency lane 1 closure due to a stranded van, so not enough time/distance to put further limits in.

[MrMickS]

Ninja59 said:

Gafferjim said:

Also, If the gantry showed a speed limit of 40 mph, then the gantry prior to that would have had either 60 mph or even 50 mph, (That's how the system works) so not being able to slow down in time is not an excuse.

Does not explain how some have come across them going 60,50,40 (as you state), then 60 to 40? (In fact I have seen that!)

Additionally it does not explain the odd one where one lane oddly shows a random figure whilst others are blank.

Simple fact is the policies and procedures state it should not happen when a number of drivers have come across situations where the smart motorways are not being managed properly!

They have to change right? What is the policy if it changes as you are approaching. Say from 60 to 40, with the corresponding changes on gantries you have already passed. It does happen and can cause sharp breaking.

I wear glasses and there are times that it can be difficult to make out whether its a 40 or 60 in direct sun until you are close. If the previous gantry was showing 60 then I don't think I'm wrong in assuming that the next one may show 60 as well. If there's no other traffic breaking ahead then it can catch you unawares.

PS. Don't say that if there's no traffic then the limits won't be set as I've driven along a stretch of empty smart motorway late at night with apparently randomly set speed limits.

[Gafferjim]

Ninja59 said:

Does not explain how some have come across them going 60,50,40 (as you state), then 60 to 40? (In fact I have seen that!)

Additionally it does not explain the odd one where one lane oddly shows a random figure whilst others are blank.

Simple fact is the policies and procedures state it should not happen when a number of drivers have come across situations where the smart motorways are not being managed properly!

For your 1st comment; Read what I put again! it would show a 60 or even a 50. This is possible if signals previous to the gantry before the lane closure are already at 50 mph.

I've also mentioned that the system only allows a step down in speeds of 20 mph (from 60, not 70, what's the use of setting signals at 70 when the national speed limit is 70)

Now if you're referring to speeds varying up & down from 1 gantry to another, that is MIDAS reacting to congestion as traffic flows over sensors in the road, these will normally be paired up with messages of "QUEUE CAUTION" "QUEUE AFTER NEXT JNT" QUEUE SLOW DOWN" etc. The system checks each MIDAS sensor approx every 3-4 minutes and signals are altered accordingly automatically. You only need some prat to slow right down because he's in the wrong lane and needs to push into another one, this slows the wqhole c/way, MIDAS reacts and lowrs the speeds just in that location, once speeds pick up again, it will lift them again.

[ashleyman]

I've been told by Surrey Camera Partnership that if for instance the gantries display 40 BLANK 50 40, the speed limit is unenforceable and the standard NSL limit applies.

I pushed and push and pushed until I got an answer on what to do if the signs showed different speeds or one was blank after driving through multiple gantries with confusing signage.

"If on a multi-lane carriageway one of the AMI signals shows blank then I believe NSL applies legally, though it would be safer to drive within the speed limit shown for the other lanes if lower, on the basis that the blank AMI signal was faulty.

There are built-in safe­guards which pre­vent the speed enforcement cam­era from acti­vat­ing if there is a crit­i­cal fault with the AMI sig­nal at that location. The sys­tem is designed to ensure that it will only cap­ture an offence when the equip­ment is work­ing cor­rectly."

As for cameras having to 'count down' from NSL to 50 or 60 then to 40. I've seen it go from a blank sign to 40 a few times with no announcements.

Edited by ashleyman on Tuesday 15th May 18:02

[Pothole]

jamei303 said:

Ninja59 said:

Firstly was there any flashes? (Or horizontal line markings under the gantry? (Although not 100% reliable as to camera location)

So they invariably use flash even in daylight? Don't think I saw any flashes so should be ok I guess.

Ninja59 said:

Next time look further ahead. Unfortunately these smart motorways dont always work logically with the next limit.

I saw the red circles well in advance. It was bright sunlight and I started braking as soon as I could make out they read 40 and not 60. I wonder what the distance they are supposed to be readable in all conditions is? Certainly less than the distance a standard motorway 40 metal sign is. Nothing wrong with my eyesight so it's a bit concerning that sharp braking was required.

It's a bit concerning to some that you thought they might say 60 but continued at 70.

[jamei303]

Pothole said:

It's a bit concerning to some that you thought they might say 60 but continued at 70.

Is it really? Well, I was already easing off but I am not one to slam on the breaks to shave 10mph off far in advance of a limit beginning.

Obviously in future I will be more aware of 40 limits appearing without prior warning, but as I said above I am not going to brake hard to satisfy a limit if the vehicles behind me don't seem to be doing likewise. I will slow down at a safe rate and if that means getting a ticket for doing 50 in a 40 then so be it.

[WJNB]

Ah the joys of cruise control. 40 mph limit motorway or anywhere? Click it on at 40, relax , maybe turn up the radio, chill out to favourite grooves & watch the twerps rush by thinking the risk is worth it, the extra mph will change their busy self-important lives. So much wasted energy trying to challenge & defeat what cannot be changed. Then days of bellyaching worrying about a fine & points/ Why? Ego, simple.

[Sheepshanks]

jamei303 said:

If you have or haven't been charged with exceeding a 40 limit on a motorway it would be good to hear about it.

Some years ago colleague did a speed awareness course for 46 on the M42 when the variable speed limit was showing 40. This was before 7AM and the motorway was pretty quiet, and he didn't see anything that would warrant the limit. On the course, half the people attending had been caught the same way.