Bequests - before or after Probate?
Discussion
I'm not sure on this.
An old lady died a few months ago. She'd told a small animal charity she had left £10K in her Will to them on condition they looked after her cats.
The charity is looking after the cats but of the £10K there is no sign. They are in touch with the deceased's daughter but I sense she's planning to keep the money. Does it have to be paid before Probate will be granted? If not, and the charity can obtain a copy of the Will to prove the bequest, is it a debt like any other, ie actionable in court?
An old lady died a few months ago. She'd told a small animal charity she had left £10K in her Will to them on condition they looked after her cats.
The charity is looking after the cats but of the £10K there is no sign. They are in touch with the deceased's daughter but I sense she's planning to keep the money. Does it have to be paid before Probate will be granted? If not, and the charity can obtain a copy of the Will to prove the bequest, is it a debt like any other, ie actionable in court?
As I understand it, and I welcome correction, only Executors have a right to see a will before probate is granted. Once probate is granted the will becomes a matter of public record and anyone can request to see a copy. If the daughter is an executor and the gift is mentioned in the will and she keeps the money, she could very well be in deep do do's down the line. If there is no mention of the gift in the will, and it was just word of mouth, it is up to the Cat's Home to contest it if they want to....
davek_964 said:
Was her estate large enough to attract IHT? When I did my mums estate, I had some questions about probate - and HMRC told me that probate wasn't necessary because the estate was below the IHT threshold.
Not according to https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance :[i]You don’t normally need a grant if the estate either:
* passes to the surviving spouse or civil partner because it was held in joint names, for example a savings account
* doesn’t include land, property or shares[/i]
But that research has answered one question - Probate first, then bequests.
If Probate is not required (as per above) does the Will go public?
Obviously if it was only a verbal promise then it's game over, otherwise I think £10K is worth pursuing.
Edited by Simpo Two on Wednesday 16th May 15:51
IIRC cash bequests have to be made before any other distribution.
You should never bequeath a cash sum, as this takes priority over all else. £10k may have been easily available at the will writing time, but by the time of death, the estate could be worth a lot less, meaning other beneficiaries end up with nothing.
If you want to distribute your wealth after death, make sure it is noted as a percentage of something, or the contents of account x rather than a specific sum.
You should never bequeath a cash sum, as this takes priority over all else. £10k may have been easily available at the will writing time, but by the time of death, the estate could be worth a lot less, meaning other beneficiaries end up with nothing.
If you want to distribute your wealth after death, make sure it is noted as a percentage of something, or the contents of account x rather than a specific sum.
Simpo Two said:
Not according to https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance :
[i]You don’t normally need a grant if the estate either:
passes to the surviving spouse or civil partner because it was held in joint names, for example a savings account
doesn’t include land, property or shares[/i]
But that research has answered one question - Probate first, then bequests.
If Probate is not required (as per above) does the Will go public?
Obviously if it was only a verbal promise then it's game over, otherwise I think £10K is worth pursuing.
Interesting that they mention shares. My mum had some, and I didn't need probate for any of the banks, pensions etc or the shares. Just the will and the death certificate.[i]You don’t normally need a grant if the estate either:
passes to the surviving spouse or civil partner because it was held in joint names, for example a savings account
doesn’t include land, property or shares[/i]
But that research has answered one question - Probate first, then bequests.
If Probate is not required (as per above) does the Will go public?
Obviously if it was only a verbal promise then it's game over, otherwise I think £10K is worth pursuing.
Jinba Ittai said:
As I understand it, and I welcome correction, only Executors have a right to see a will before probate is granted. Once probate is granted the will becomes a matter of public record and anyone can request to see a copy. If the daughter is an executor and the gift is mentioned in the will and she keeps the money, she could very well be in deep do do's down the line. If there is no mention of the gift in the will, and it was just word of mouth, it is up to the Cat's Home to contest it if they want to....
Correct on all counts. Many beneficiaries are unaware of the first one.It can cause some unpleasantness if the Executor (or Administrator if there is no will) is unwillng to communicate.
Once an estate has entered Probate there isn't any point is playing 'secret squirrel' as anyone can apply to the Registry for a copy.
An Executor is liable to the full extent of his/her own assets for any mismanagement.
I know of a case where the executor was forced to sell their home as a consequence.
F**k about at your peril.
Simpo Two said:
If Probate is not required (as per above) does the Will go public?
No. It remains a private document.See Section 2.3 on page 5 here - researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03194/SN03194.pdf
AlwynMike said:
IIRC cash bequests have to be made before any other distribution.
Correct, but It is not confined to cash. All bequests/legacies must be dealt with before the residue is distributed.The different types of legacy are explained here - https://www.institute-of-fundraising.org.uk/code-o...
Your point about not mentioning a specific sum of money is germane. It's all to easy for circumstances to change.
Many people never revisit their will made years previously.
Adverse circumstances could conspire to leave the residual legatees with a lot less than they might have expected.
In the worst case scenario that could be nothing, zilch, zero.
Do bear in mind not all bequests are in the will and they may not be in a formal codecil but an accompanying letter.
My father recently died. There was a letter he left totally independent of the will asking for bequests to be made along with a series of other requests and bits of information about the estate.
We honoured the letter, but it was never filed with the will as it was not part of it.
My father recently died. There was a letter he left totally independent of the will asking for bequests to be made along with a series of other requests and bits of information about the estate.
We honoured the letter, but it was never filed with the will as it was not part of it.
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