Risk assessment for kids playing in council hall/gardens
Discussion
TL/DR: can a local council insist on a risk assessment for children playing in a hall and grounds they make available for community use.
Full story below:
A member of my family’s kid has Aspergers, she and some other mums have set up a little group of about 15 similar kids that meet up once a week at a hall run by the local council in a small village. The idea being it lets the kids be themselves for a few hours without the rigid structure of school. The hall has a garden to the front and some ground to the sides/rear that the kids play in, the mums take it in turns to supervise them when they are outside.
The village is mostly populated by retired NIMBYs who never seem very happy seeing the children running around having fun. The kids once had a day in the woods with a woodlands expert, the NIMBYs complained about this as the expert lit a small fire for the kids. The current problem arose when two of the kids had devised an assault course round the garden, part of the course involved climbing on top of and then jumping off a small metal litter bin. A local NIMBY was walking past and saw this, she started shouting to the kids to get off the bin as they could ‘hurt themselves’, the supervising mum who was there (as the kids aren’t treated like snowflakes) said they’re fine and able to judge things like this for themselves.
The NIMBY then said she was a retired nurse and knew these things and they could hurt themselves. The mum continued to disagree with her, the NIMBY then changed tact and went on to say they could damage the bin. The mum also disagreed with this, but to keep the peace told the kids to stop using the bin as part of the course.
This wasn’t enough for the NIMBY as the next week when they were back at the hall, the council staff said the NIMBY had raised an official complaint against them and they now needed a meeting to discuss creating a risk assessment for the kids to play there. The mums are now all worried about this risk assessment as the examples they’ve seen online have things like requiring the play area to have a gate and fencing all round, the ground where the kids play right now has none of this. They are worried they are going to be forced out of the hall. Sadly, there are no other suitable halls locally they could use as a replacement.
My question therefore is can the council demand a risk assessment for the kids playing in the hall and its gardens, shouldn’t they already have one for hiring the hall out anyway?
Full story below:
A member of my family’s kid has Aspergers, she and some other mums have set up a little group of about 15 similar kids that meet up once a week at a hall run by the local council in a small village. The idea being it lets the kids be themselves for a few hours without the rigid structure of school. The hall has a garden to the front and some ground to the sides/rear that the kids play in, the mums take it in turns to supervise them when they are outside.
The village is mostly populated by retired NIMBYs who never seem very happy seeing the children running around having fun. The kids once had a day in the woods with a woodlands expert, the NIMBYs complained about this as the expert lit a small fire for the kids. The current problem arose when two of the kids had devised an assault course round the garden, part of the course involved climbing on top of and then jumping off a small metal litter bin. A local NIMBY was walking past and saw this, she started shouting to the kids to get off the bin as they could ‘hurt themselves’, the supervising mum who was there (as the kids aren’t treated like snowflakes) said they’re fine and able to judge things like this for themselves.
The NIMBY then said she was a retired nurse and knew these things and they could hurt themselves. The mum continued to disagree with her, the NIMBY then changed tact and went on to say they could damage the bin. The mum also disagreed with this, but to keep the peace told the kids to stop using the bin as part of the course.
This wasn’t enough for the NIMBY as the next week when they were back at the hall, the council staff said the NIMBY had raised an official complaint against them and they now needed a meeting to discuss creating a risk assessment for the kids to play there. The mums are now all worried about this risk assessment as the examples they’ve seen online have things like requiring the play area to have a gate and fencing all round, the ground where the kids play right now has none of this. They are worried they are going to be forced out of the hall. Sadly, there are no other suitable halls locally they could use as a replacement.
My question therefore is can the council demand a risk assessment for the kids playing in the hall and its gardens, shouldn’t they already have one for hiring the hall out anyway?
I would suggest that there is no legal requirement for a risk assessment. However, if the council own the hall they are entirely within their rights to place stipulations on the use of a hall.
That being said, people who do not understand health and safety often place rediculous requirements. The HSE can offer advice on this, because they are fed up with people using their name in vain (ie using H&S to achieve some other agenda). There is nothing wrong with raising a risk assessment. It might just say “supervised by a responsible adult”.
That being said, people who do not understand health and safety often place rediculous requirements. The HSE can offer advice on this, because they are fed up with people using their name in vain (ie using H&S to achieve some other agenda). There is nothing wrong with raising a risk assessment. It might just say “supervised by a responsible adult”.
k off, NIMBY".Nampahc Niloc said:
That's great thanks, I've found this which I think they will be able to adapt:http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/village...
It still looks like something the council should do themselves, but as said above at least if they make one the NIMBY can be to be on their way.
I have had to do a few "risk assessments" and they are not as bad as people make out. First, there are no fixed need, like the fence thing. It is way more simple. What are the risks, what reasonable steps are you taking to limit them? Its harder with kids as they cannot accept risk for them self.
mgv8 said:
I have had to do a few "risk assessments" and they are not as bad as people make out. First, there are no fixed need, like the fence thing. It is way more simple. What are the risks, what reasonable steps are you taking to limit them? Its harder with kids as they cannot accept risk for them self.
This is absolutely spot on.What are the risks? There is no fence so the children might run off.
What have you done to minimise the risk? Sufficient adult supervision at all times when the children are in the garden.
Risk assessment done.
This appears to be an "organised group" and presumably they book the Hall/Gardens even if no fee is charged.
The Council can therefore request a RA as part of their booking Ts&Cs.
I would suggest that one adult supervising 15 kids is insufficient. If she needs to nip to the loo, gets distracted or gets tied up because Jonny has fallen over, there is no additional cover and you can bet that will be when an incident occurs. They may also want to look into organising DBS checks for the supervising adults although the Council may be able to help with this.
I work voluntarily in sport and deal with this sort of thing a lot.
Other things to consider are
Keeping a register so you know who is there (and was there on certain dates)
Health issues for children e.g. nut allergies, diabetes etc.
Emergency contact details for each child.
First Aid - could be as simple as First Aid kit on site or 999 if more serious.
Site Security - how easy or hard is it for a child to wander off
You say this is for a few hours so ensure they bring a drink - kids running around get hot and dehydrate
Sun block if it's hot - presumably indoors if weather is bad
Do they use any equipment - make sure it is regularly checked before use
"Lost Child Policy" - what to do if a random kid appears without a parent. The fact the child says "it's OK my mom knows" is not enough.
Once you have padded out the above points you will have the basis of a document.
The Council can therefore request a RA as part of their booking Ts&Cs.
I would suggest that one adult supervising 15 kids is insufficient. If she needs to nip to the loo, gets distracted or gets tied up because Jonny has fallen over, there is no additional cover and you can bet that will be when an incident occurs. They may also want to look into organising DBS checks for the supervising adults although the Council may be able to help with this.
I work voluntarily in sport and deal with this sort of thing a lot.
Other things to consider are
Keeping a register so you know who is there (and was there on certain dates)
Health issues for children e.g. nut allergies, diabetes etc.
Emergency contact details for each child.
First Aid - could be as simple as First Aid kit on site or 999 if more serious.
Site Security - how easy or hard is it for a child to wander off
You say this is for a few hours so ensure they bring a drink - kids running around get hot and dehydrate
Sun block if it's hot - presumably indoors if weather is bad
Do they use any equipment - make sure it is regularly checked before use
"Lost Child Policy" - what to do if a random kid appears without a parent. The fact the child says "it's OK my mom knows" is not enough.
Once you have padded out the above points you will have the basis of a document.
Thanks for the replies, I've been to the hall a couple of times in the past for kids parties, from memory the gardens/grounds have things like trees and walls in them, would they have to create a separate line for each of these of just a generic climbing on stuff risk? (bins excluded of course!)
rainagain said:
Thanks for the replies, I've been to the hall a couple of times in the past for kids parties, from memory the gardens/grounds have things like trees and walls in them, would they have to create a separate line for each of these of just a generic climbing on stuff risk? (bins excluded of course!)
It's entirely up to you. I'd say keep it as generic as possible personally. I've tried to do one for workshop use and got told that power tools had to be a separate lounge to not power ones but that a screw driver and saw otherwise basically present the same risk. Falling off a tree or a bin or a climbing frame results the same out come so they're the same risk. It also avoids redoing it if you get a new climbing frame... rainagain said:
That's great thanks, I've found this which I think they will be able to adapt:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/village...
It still looks like something the council should do themselves, but as said above at least if they make one the NIMBY can be to be on their way.
That would have been my suggestion, asking the council why they had let it out without a risk assessmenthttp://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/village...
It still looks like something the council should do themselves, but as said above at least if they make one the NIMBY can be to be on their way.
voyds9 said:
rainagain said:
That's great thanks, I've found this which I think they will be able to adapt:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/village...
It still looks like something the council should do themselves, but as said above at least if they make one the NIMBY can be to be on their way.
That would have been my suggestion, asking the council why they had let it out without a risk assessmenthttp://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/village...
It still looks like something the council should do themselves, but as said above at least if they make one the NIMBY can be to be on their way.
Agree the play area needs to be fenced off from the street / road.
Otherwise, unless the kids are playing with flame throwers and chainsaws the Council will have a generic RA based on a list of "approved activities" that they allow to be undertaken in their hall.
You need a copy and sign to say read and understood.
Usual caveats over adequate supervision, first aider, not bringing hazardous kit into building, etc.
Otherwise, unless the kids are playing with flame throwers and chainsaws the Council will have a generic RA based on a list of "approved activities" that they allow to be undertaken in their hall.
You need a copy and sign to say read and understood.
Usual caveats over adequate supervision, first aider, not bringing hazardous kit into building, etc.
They had their meeting, I was told it lasted a whole five minutes. The Council staff didn't even read the risk assessment the Mums had drawn up. They just said that the kids are now no longer allowed to play in the front garden as this is looked after by the community council (despite there being no damage ever done to this as the kids are respectful). They can't climb on anything (not even trees) and they must wear shoes when outside (some of the kids enjoy going barefoot).
Looks like a victory for the local community council NIMBY
Looks like a victory for the local community council NIMBY
Don’t give in. They are an elected body and might change their mind if they think it’s going to cost them votes. As has already been said, write to the local newspaper. In fact, right to some national newspapers. The tabloids love a good H&S gone crazy story.
Contact the HSE, who will have an opinion on this.
Make a point of going to all public council meetings and raise it every time.
Basically, stick it to the man.
Contact the HSE, who will have an opinion on this.
Make a point of going to all public council meetings and raise it every time.
Basically, stick it to the man.
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