SIGNS painted on the road surface
Discussion
How much notice should you take of directions and instructions painted on the road surface?
Aside from the obvious disadvantage that they cannot be read when the vehicle in front is passing over them in slow heavy traffic, some signs do not have any legal validity - such as speed limits painted on the road surface.
However, some drivers seem to think that they DO have a legal basis... and follow the instruction no matter what.
So if contradictory signage exists, is there an onus for the authorities to put it right?
The A5284 out of Kendal towards Windermere has long had a pointless 40 mph buffer zone between the 30 and National speed limited areas.
However, that has now changed, and the 30 mph limit has been extended out to what WAS the 40 mph boundary with the National limit.
So far, satnavs have not updated, and the 40 mph limits are still painted on the road!
The moral of this story is that those charged with a duty to set limits and sign them correctly for the well being and safety of all road users just don't have a clue WHAT they are doing!
Aside from the obvious disadvantage that they cannot be read when the vehicle in front is passing over them in slow heavy traffic, some signs do not have any legal validity - such as speed limits painted on the road surface.
However, some drivers seem to think that they DO have a legal basis... and follow the instruction no matter what.
So if contradictory signage exists, is there an onus for the authorities to put it right?
The A5284 out of Kendal towards Windermere has long had a pointless 40 mph buffer zone between the 30 and National speed limited areas.
However, that has now changed, and the 30 mph limit has been extended out to what WAS the 40 mph boundary with the National limit.
So far, satnavs have not updated, and the 40 mph limits are still painted on the road!
The moral of this story is that those charged with a duty to set limits and sign them correctly for the well being and safety of all road users just don't have a clue WHAT they are doing!
I'm sure the 40 roundels will be removed in the not too distant future. I'm not sure if you know anything about highways engineering, but it is nigh-on impossible to perfectly coordinate different types of work and contractors!! Although yes, they should have been removed prior to the 30 signs going in.
Mill Wheel said:
How much notice should you take of directions and instructions painted on the road surface?
Aside from the obvious disadvantage that they cannot be read when the vehicle in front is passing over them in slow heavy traffic, some signs do not have any legal validity - such as speed limits painted on the road surface.
However, some drivers seem to think that they DO have a legal basis... and follow the instruction no matter what.
So if contradictory signage exists, is there an onus for the authorities to put it right?
The A5284 out of Kendal towards Windermere has long had a pointless 40 mph buffer zone between the 30 and National speed limited areas.
However, that has now changed, and the 30 mph limit has been extended out to what WAS the 40 mph boundary with the National limit.
So far, satnavs have not updated, and the 40 mph limits are still painted on the road!
The moral of this story is that those charged with a duty to set limits and sign them correctly for the well being and safety of all road users just don't have a clue WHAT they are doing!
I’m confused, the 40 signs are still there too, so how do you know it’s now a 30 limit?Aside from the obvious disadvantage that they cannot be read when the vehicle in front is passing over them in slow heavy traffic, some signs do not have any legal validity - such as speed limits painted on the road surface.
However, some drivers seem to think that they DO have a legal basis... and follow the instruction no matter what.
So if contradictory signage exists, is there an onus for the authorities to put it right?
The A5284 out of Kendal towards Windermere has long had a pointless 40 mph buffer zone between the 30 and National speed limited areas.
However, that has now changed, and the 30 mph limit has been extended out to what WAS the 40 mph boundary with the National limit.
So far, satnavs have not updated, and the 40 mph limits are still painted on the road!
The moral of this story is that those charged with a duty to set limits and sign them correctly for the well being and safety of all road users just don't have a clue WHAT they are doing!
Nimby said:
Mill Wheel said:
... However, some drivers seem to think that they DO have a legal basis
They can do - certainly in many National Parks and AONB's, and possibly anywhere specific enabling legislation is in place.Ashdown Forest in East Sussex is another.
Nimby said:
They can do - certainly in many National Parks and AONB's, and possibly anywhere specific enabling legislation is in place.
I was just checking this and indeed it looks like in areas with specific derogation from the need to have repeaters because of environmental considerations they have legal force. Without signage to that effect how are you supposed know that is the case on the road you are on?Edited by Nimby on Monday 18th June 14:40
I wonder if this has come up on a SAC?
Toltec said:
I was just checking this and indeed it looks like in areas with specific derogation from the need to have repeaters because of environmental considerations they have legal force. Without signage to that effect how are you supposed know that is the case on the road you are on?
I wonder if this has come up on a SAC?
Why would it? The painted roads are clearly indicating what speed you should be doing as a maximum. SACs are not about talking through the pedantic technicalities so beloved on here. I wonder if this has come up on a SAC?
I'd be interested in why you think that the speed limit markings painted on the carriageway are non-mandatory.
Provided thay are placed in accordance with Diagram 1065 of the Traffic Signs regulations and General Directions (schedule 10, Part 2 of TSRGD 2016) surely they indicate the maximum speed limit permitted ?
Looking at the General Directions Schedule 10 Part 4 the following notes apply to these markings :
2. The sign must not be placed as a repeater sign where the road is subject to a maximum speed limit of 30mph and has a system of carriageway lighting.
4(a) the sign mus only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, byelaw, resolution or notice which restricts the use of the road by traffic;...
5. If the road marking is placed to indicate where a maximum speed limit commences it must be placed in conjunction with an upright sign.....
Looking at the picture, I'd say that the markings as shown are installed correctly in that instance (assuming that the signs on the other side say 30.
If there is a discrepancy between the signage and the markings then I'd usually assume that the lower limit applies although I suspect it would be difficult to be prosecuted for driving to the higher limit due to the ambiguity.
Provided thay are placed in accordance with Diagram 1065 of the Traffic Signs regulations and General Directions (schedule 10, Part 2 of TSRGD 2016) surely they indicate the maximum speed limit permitted ?
Looking at the General Directions Schedule 10 Part 4 the following notes apply to these markings :
2. The sign must not be placed as a repeater sign where the road is subject to a maximum speed limit of 30mph and has a system of carriageway lighting.
4(a) the sign mus only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, byelaw, resolution or notice which restricts the use of the road by traffic;...
5. If the road marking is placed to indicate where a maximum speed limit commences it must be placed in conjunction with an upright sign.....
Looking at the picture, I'd say that the markings as shown are installed correctly in that instance (assuming that the signs on the other side say 30.
If there is a discrepancy between the signage and the markings then I'd usually assume that the lower limit applies although I suspect it would be difficult to be prosecuted for driving to the higher limit due to the ambiguity.
Gavia said:
I’m confused, the 40 signs are still there too, so how do you know it’s now a 30 limit?
That is because Google Streetview is not up to date either... the 40 mph signs have GONE, and the 30 mph limit extends up to the NSL signs which are in the distance, about 150 yards further on.Presumably the lack of buffer limit now is an admission that it never made any difference, and drivers sped through it and into the 30 limit...
Mill Wheel said:
That is because Google Streetview is not up to date either... the 40 mph signs have GONE, and the 30 mph limit extends up to the NSL signs which are in the distance, about 150 yards further on.
Presumably the lack of buffer limit now is an admission that it never made any difference, and drivers sped through it and into the 30 limit...
Ah right that makes sense now. Are the new houses on the right as you’re in the 40 limit the reason for the drop to 30?Presumably the lack of buffer limit now is an admission that it never made any difference, and drivers sped through it and into the 30 limit...
I think what will happen is the painted 40 will be burned off in time and there won’t be any enforcement whilst there’s the ambiguity.
Gavia said:
Ah right that makes sense now. Are the new houses on the right as you’re in the 40 limit the reason for the drop to 30?
I think what will happen is the painted 40 will be burned off in time and there won’t be any enforcement whilst there’s the ambiguity.
I don't think the new houses are the only reason for the drop - ALL the routes in and out of Kendal have been extended outwards - the A6 route because there is a new rugby ground... and that route now has two extra sets of traffic lights on it too.I think what will happen is the painted 40 will be burned off in time and there won’t be any enforcement whilst there’s the ambiguity.
The main change is they have abandoned the buffer zones, which were pointless, as they were always ignored, and simply dropped the limits to 30 right up to the NSL.
Meanwhile the District Council is pushing for 20 everywhere off he main routes despite one exponent councillor iming his route from the station to his home at an average of 13 mph. Thousands of pounds will be spent on signage and traffic orders that will achieve nothing!
They have also spent thousands narrowing roads by adding a cycle path along side, which most cyclists refuse to use, as they are conflicting with pedestrians and even horse riders!
Mill Wheel said:
I don't think the new houses are the only reason for the drop - ALL the routes in and out of Kendal have been extended outwards - the A6 route because there is a new rugby ground... and that route now has two extra sets of traffic lights on it too.
The main change is they have abandoned the buffer zones, which were pointless, as they were always ignored, and simply dropped the limits to 30 right up to the NSL.
Meanwhile the District Council is pushing for 20 everywhere off he main routes despite one exponent councillor iming his route from the station to his home at an average of 13 mph. Thousands of pounds will be spent on signage and traffic orders that will achieve nothing!
They have also spent thousands narrowing roads by adding a cycle path along side, which most cyclists refuse to use, as they are conflicting with pedestrians and even horse riders!
I know the A6 part well, has the 40 limit gone there around the turn off for BurnetsideThe main change is they have abandoned the buffer zones, which were pointless, as they were always ignored, and simply dropped the limits to 30 right up to the NSL.
Meanwhile the District Council is pushing for 20 everywhere off he main routes despite one exponent councillor iming his route from the station to his home at an average of 13 mph. Thousands of pounds will be spent on signage and traffic orders that will achieve nothing!
They have also spent thousands narrowing roads by adding a cycle path along side, which most cyclists refuse to use, as they are conflicting with pedestrians and even horse riders!
Gavia said:
I know the A6 part well, has the 40 limit gone there around the turn off for Burnetside
The 40 mph section used to cover from the Morrisons turning, to the Caravan club site. That has gone, and the 30 limit goes all the way out to the layby just before the Burneside turning.The Burneside road is closed at present due to the state of the bridge in Burneside, after Storm Desmond. Drivers expecting to turn that way and having to turn back, face a lengthy drive back into Kendal on the A6 given the extended 30 limit and new sets of traffic lights!
On the painted limit - the sign was being burned off on Tuesday night, and also the old metal Cats Eyes dug out and filled in
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