Yellow Box Junctions
Discussion
Just received the pcn for this apparently the alleged time stopped is 1.5 seconds based on the time stamps in the photos.
I'm not disputing my car, etc but the time seems very short, is there a minimum time the vehicle has to be stopped for before whacking out the fine?
Also how do I find out the justification for the yellow box junction, FOI request to the council? I don't believe this one actually helps traffic flow at all which was the original reason for them.
I'm not disputing my car, etc but the time seems very short, is there a minimum time the vehicle has to be stopped for before whacking out the fine?
Also how do I find out the justification for the yellow box junction, FOI request to the council? I don't believe this one actually helps traffic flow at all which was the original reason for them.
As far as I understand it, the offence is stopping, not stopping for X seconds.
Good luck with the "it shouldn't be there" because it is. You could try improper signage etc, but once the paint is down,it doesn't hugely matter if it's there because it matches the daffs on springtime, it's not a place to stop. For what it's worth, if I ever misjudge a box exit, I try really hard to keep moving, even at 1cm/sec pace.
Good luck with the "it shouldn't be there" because it is. You could try improper signage etc, but once the paint is down,it doesn't hugely matter if it's there because it matches the daffs on springtime, it's not a place to stop. For what it's worth, if I ever misjudge a box exit, I try really hard to keep moving, even at 1cm/sec pace.
gottans said:
Just received the pcn for this apparently the alleged time stopped is 1.5 seconds based on the time stamps in the photos.
I'm not disputing my car, etc but the time seems very short, is there a minimum time the vehicle has to be stopped for before whacking out the fine?
Also how do I find out the justification for the yellow box junction, FOI request to the council? I don't believe this one actually helps traffic flow at all which was the original reason for them.
HC says you must not enter the yellow box unless your exit lane is clear - unless you are turning right and are prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic.I'm not disputing my car, etc but the time seems very short, is there a minimum time the vehicle has to be stopped for before whacking out the fine?
Also how do I find out the justification for the yellow box junction, FOI request to the council? I don't believe this one actually helps traffic flow at all which was the original reason for them.
If you were not turning across oncoming traffic then they have you bang to rights as stopping infers your exit lane was not clear.
Just a thought, if enough folks stop in them even for a short period that can still negate their usefulness... and arguing it is a useless yellow box does not stop it from being a place you mustn't stop...
HC 174
http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-junctions.html
174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)
http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-junctions.html
174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)
I'm just pissed at getting caught, I don't have a problem with if it is serving a genuine purpose.
They want my £65, I'll make sure they spend it on my FOI request asking for justification for the yellow box junction and how it improves traffic flow.
None of the above explains why it was necessary to put the yellow box at this particular junction.
They want my £65, I'll make sure they spend it on my FOI request asking for justification for the yellow box junction and how it improves traffic flow.
None of the above explains why it was necessary to put the yellow box at this particular junction.
ts profiting from it, if that means a letter and a 2nd class stamp to achieve it them so be it.gottans said:
I have zero expectation of a straight answer, this is a council we are talking about. I just want them to waste my £65 trying find a bit of paperwork they have lost rather than using it to fund another camera based money trap.
I think you mean you want to waste tax payer's money because you are pissed off at yourself for being a bit, well, spesh and not being able to drive within the rules and then throwing your toys out the pram because you got caught?The Moose said:
gottans said:
I have zero expectation of a straight answer, this is a council we are talking about. I just want them to waste my £65 trying find a bit of paperwork they have lost rather than using it to fund another camera based money trap.
I think you mean you want to waste tax payer's money because you are pissed off at yourself for being a bit, well, spesh and not being able to drive within the rules and then throwing your toys out the pram because you got caught?I know, just go for crowd-funding, like most people do who are martyrs to a ‘cause’.
Discussed many times on PH. For example, see this thread - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Rule 174 in the Highway Code is not an accurate statement of the law. You won't find the word 'until' anywhere.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/sched...
The key words are '...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.'
It is quite possible to enter when there are no stationary vehicles which are impeding your exit and then be forced to stop within the box by the subsequent actions of another driver.
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showth...
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?f...
Having your planned exit road space pinched is far from uncommon in London, especially where a bus lane commences immediately after the junction.
As we don't know the precise circumstances of the OP's case it is impossible to say whether he has a valid challenge.
His current train of thought definitely won't wash. There is no time element involved, nor does the LA have to justify why the YBJ exists.
The only other argument which he could advance is that the markings are non-compliant. That's a tough one.
Rule 174 in the Highway Code is not an accurate statement of the law. You won't find the word 'until' anywhere.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/sched...
The key words are '...no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.'
It is quite possible to enter when there are no stationary vehicles which are impeding your exit and then be forced to stop within the box by the subsequent actions of another driver.
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showth...
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?f...
Having your planned exit road space pinched is far from uncommon in London, especially where a bus lane commences immediately after the junction.
As we don't know the precise circumstances of the OP's case it is impossible to say whether he has a valid challenge.
His current train of thought definitely won't wash. There is no time element involved, nor does the LA have to justify why the YBJ exists.
The only other argument which he could advance is that the markings are non-compliant. That's a tough one.
As above, the only defence that you may have is that the exit was clear when you entered, but was subsequently blocked, by a lane-changer for example.
If you can view the PCN online, you should be able to get the video footage which will show if that is a possible defence for you. The fine won't increase whilst it's under appeal, so try to get it in early if you go down that route.
Otherwise, consider if the cost of the fine is worth your time and effort challenging it.
If you can view the PCN online, you should be able to get the video footage which will show if that is a possible defence for you. The fine won't increase whilst it's under appeal, so try to get it in early if you go down that route.
Otherwise, consider if the cost of the fine is worth your time and effort challenging it.
The normal benchmark on pepipoo is that a 'stop' in a YBJ of under 5 secs is normally considered in court as de minimus and is a valid defence
Put whatever you have on there and see if they think it has get legs
Have you seen the video or just a couple of stills. as i said have a word with the lads on there
The situation is this
At the moment..do nothing and you pay 65.00
contest it
If the council back down you win 65.00
If the council take take it further you go to tribunal and you either win 65.00 on de minimus or lose 65.00 if council is upheld
Either way it is your 65.00 and how you spend it or try to save it is up to you
I know what i would do
Put whatever you have on there and see if they think it has get legs
Have you seen the video or just a couple of stills. as i said have a word with the lads on there
The situation is this
At the moment..do nothing and you pay 65.00
contest it
If the council back down you win 65.00
If the council take take it further you go to tribunal and you either win 65.00 on de minimus or lose 65.00 if council is upheld
Either way it is your 65.00 and how you spend it or try to save it is up to you
I know what i would do
Edited by silverfoxcc on Wednesday 20th June 17:59
Edited by silverfoxcc on Wednesday 20th June 18:02
Well if the council won't divulge why the YBJ is there, not a lot of point asking which seems unfair as it isn't exactly top secret.
They have only provided photos, no video and the plan is to just limit the financial damage as time spent arguing with a faceless non-entity is probably better employed more productively elsewhere.
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/Ovib3jVM.png[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/GPmVK5ux" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/GPmVK5ux.png)
They have only provided photos, no video and the plan is to just limit the financial damage as time spent arguing with a faceless non-entity is probably better employed more productively elsewhere.
In rush hour the traffic is usually stationary due to problems further down the road. I don't believe this YBJ serves any useful purpose regarding traffic flow and is just a cash machine for the council.
Same with the next one 100 yards down the road, how does it help you continue round the roundabout when it is your priority. It doesn't and is just used to raise cash for the council.
Same with the next one 100 yards down the road, how does it help you continue round the roundabout when it is your priority. It doesn't and is just used to raise cash for the council.
gottans said:
In rush hour the traffic is usually stationary due to problems further down the road. I don't believe this YBJ serves any useful purpose regarding traffic flow and is just a cash machine for the council.
Same with the next one 100 yards down the road, how does it help you continue round the roundabout when it is your priority. It doesn't and is just used to raise cash for the council.
I'm not sure I have you straight so indulge me:Same with the next one 100 yards down the road, how does it help you continue round the roundabout when it is your priority. It doesn't and is just used to raise cash for the council.
- you know the area and you know the YBJ is there.
- you entered it knowing and being able to see clearly that your exit was not clear
- you have been caught doing that and issued with a FPN
- you think the YBJ shouldn't be there, so that's the excuse you'd like to use for committing an offence and to have the FPN quashed.
Is that right? If so, you'll find some similar-minded people on the "poor Tommy Robinson" thread. Bloomin' weird form of civil disobedience, mind.
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