Solicitor trying to claim extra costs after invoice paid
Discussion
I need some advice please from the resident law specialists here on a solicitor I used for completing a house purchase.
The solicitor was recommended by my FiL to complete the purchase as the firm do a lot of work for him. He was told that they would charge extra due to the work involved with the lender but at no point was he told how much extra. I had also used the same firm to complete a house sale a while before and they seemed okay then and as I was 5000km away I wasn't going to argue over what I thought was going to be an extra couple of hundred pounds.
The service they provided was shoddy at best right from the start, sending the initial instructions pack with likely costs to an address I never lived at and they had already completed the sale of that property for us a while back so how they managed to send documents there we will never know. I also had to get involved regularly and ended up constantly on the phone due to their complete lack of ability to deal with the lender's solicitors as well as the vendor's solicitors, they really were that bad and at one point the partner even sent a very sarcastic email to one of the other firms criticising them when it was actually his own junior who was responsible for a delay.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, the incompetent junior sent me an invoice before completion which I immediately settled, only for the partner to then come back and say they had forgotten to add the agreed extra amount to the invoice, which he calculated as £600+VAT, so a not so insignificant amount. Now my FiL never agreed to this amount, I would definitely not have used them had I known this was going to be the case, and after some very heated conversations I went to see them about it personally.
The partner negotiated it down to £450+VAT but I left making it clear it still wasn't acceptable especially due to the amount of time I had to spend on the phone myself dealing with their cock ups, the sale was literally about to fall through on the day of completion due to an undertaking they could not agree on with the lender's solicitors.
So the question is what is a reasonable amount to pay? I'm not a wealthy man and what's really annoyed me the most is that the lender's solicitors charged me just £550+VAT for acting on behalf of the lender, it was agreed I was to pay their costs from the start as part of the lender's conditions, and had they acted on my behalf too that fee would have been waived and I would have paid just for my own costs, so I'm already out of pocket here.
Thank you in advance for your help.
The solicitor was recommended by my FiL to complete the purchase as the firm do a lot of work for him. He was told that they would charge extra due to the work involved with the lender but at no point was he told how much extra. I had also used the same firm to complete a house sale a while before and they seemed okay then and as I was 5000km away I wasn't going to argue over what I thought was going to be an extra couple of hundred pounds.
The service they provided was shoddy at best right from the start, sending the initial instructions pack with likely costs to an address I never lived at and they had already completed the sale of that property for us a while back so how they managed to send documents there we will never know. I also had to get involved regularly and ended up constantly on the phone due to their complete lack of ability to deal with the lender's solicitors as well as the vendor's solicitors, they really were that bad and at one point the partner even sent a very sarcastic email to one of the other firms criticising them when it was actually his own junior who was responsible for a delay.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, the incompetent junior sent me an invoice before completion which I immediately settled, only for the partner to then come back and say they had forgotten to add the agreed extra amount to the invoice, which he calculated as £600+VAT, so a not so insignificant amount. Now my FiL never agreed to this amount, I would definitely not have used them had I known this was going to be the case, and after some very heated conversations I went to see them about it personally.
The partner negotiated it down to £450+VAT but I left making it clear it still wasn't acceptable especially due to the amount of time I had to spend on the phone myself dealing with their cock ups, the sale was literally about to fall through on the day of completion due to an undertaking they could not agree on with the lender's solicitors.
So the question is what is a reasonable amount to pay? I'm not a wealthy man and what's really annoyed me the most is that the lender's solicitors charged me just £550+VAT for acting on behalf of the lender, it was agreed I was to pay their costs from the start as part of the lender's conditions, and had they acted on my behalf too that fee would have been waived and I would have paid just for my own costs, so I'm already out of pocket here.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Edited by 147GTA on Tuesday 24th July 02:18
Just to give an example of the lack of ability from this firm, as the property was going to be left unoccupied the lender required an unnoccupied insurance policy be put in place for the property by my solicitor. 1 week before completion they emailed me to say they were unable to get a policy that satisfied this requirement and left it for me to deal with, after spending 2 weeks trying to insure the property. Yet after 1 hour searching online and on the phone, with a little bit of help from here, while still at work I managed to insure the property correctly and when I asked the insurer if this was rare they said no it was quite common for them to issue such policies.
The were duty bound to give you the best idea of what their fees were likely to be at the outset of the matter. Presumably you received the paperwork eventually - what did it say in there?
However, the very fact that there were separate solicitors acting for the bank makes it clear that this was not a typical residential purchase, and therefore probably not a straightforward one either, especially if an undertaking was needed for which the wording was controversial. Bridging finance perhaps?
Solicitors acting for a buyer in such circumstances quite often have to jump through some serious hoops. Keep this in mind but check what they said about fees, exactly (probably in the client care letter) and take it from there.
However, the very fact that there were separate solicitors acting for the bank makes it clear that this was not a typical residential purchase, and therefore probably not a straightforward one either, especially if an undertaking was needed for which the wording was controversial. Bridging finance perhaps?
Solicitors acting for a buyer in such circumstances quite often have to jump through some serious hoops. Keep this in mind but check what they said about fees, exactly (probably in the client care letter) and take it from there.
The issue is the partner claimed he put the £600+VAT in the client care letter but I never saw it as due to his junior's incompetence it was sent to an address that they had even completed the sale for and what's worse is they knew I was 5000km away anyway.
No email was sent with a copy of their estimated costs either, so the first I knew about this additional cost was when after paying the total invoice due I was sent a revised invoice with the additional amount added. This amount was not in the first invoice sent to me by the junior either that I immediately paid in full.
No email was sent with a copy of their estimated costs either, so the first I knew about this additional cost was when after paying the total invoice due I was sent a revised invoice with the additional amount added. This amount was not in the first invoice sent to me by the junior either that I immediately paid in full.
What's the actual line item which the £600 covers? Is it a separate charge or basically an increase to the cost of "our fee on purchase"?
Did they give you an estimate before you started the process, and was this line item included on it?
If the line item wasn't included in the estimate, and they've given a completion statement which you've paid in full, I'd tell them to FRO. What's to say they don't come back with another £600 after you've paid this one?
Edited to add: try to decouple the "shoddy service" from the "extra charge". They're two separate things. If the charge was written on their estimate and it's for legitimate work that they've done, then you owe it, no matter how shoddy the service was - although it's hard, you shouldn't let that cloud your judgment.
Did they give you an estimate before you started the process, and was this line item included on it?
If the line item wasn't included in the estimate, and they've given a completion statement which you've paid in full, I'd tell them to FRO. What's to say they don't come back with another £600 after you've paid this one?
Edited to add: try to decouple the "shoddy service" from the "extra charge". They're two separate things. If the charge was written on their estimate and it's for legitimate work that they've done, then you owe it, no matter how shoddy the service was - although it's hard, you shouldn't let that cloud your judgment.
Edited by Usget on Tuesday 24th July 10:37
Solicitors who are employed (...and self-employed) are no different from salesmen. They have billing targets, bosses who scrutinise hrs billed and partners of the firms who take dividends based on profit figures.
Human nature dictates that if you pay someone by the hour, at an agreed rate, they will not rush and round up, not down.
They are no different from mechanics who you pay by the hour. A good year is based on hours billed and not necessarily hours worked. Or in many cases, not based the results.
Human nature dictates that if you pay someone by the hour, at an agreed rate, they will not rush and round up, not down.
They are no different from mechanics who you pay by the hour. A good year is based on hours billed and not necessarily hours worked. Or in many cases, not based the results.
Edited by 7795 on Tuesday 24th July 10:52
The shoddy service is linked with the additional charge as I wasn't made aware of it in anyway until after I had paid the first invoice in full, which I thought included their additional charge for doing the job under their fee for professional costs. I never got an estimate beforehand as they sent it to the wrong address and never emailed me a copy.
The actual line is "fee for acting for lender", listed as a separate item to their "fee for professional costs". Their shoddiness also inflated the bill as they also charged me an additional £150+VAT for simultaneous exchange and completion, again had to be done as it was the final day of the mortgage offer.
The actual line is "fee for acting for lender", listed as a separate item to their "fee for professional costs". Their shoddiness also inflated the bill as they also charged me an additional £150+VAT for simultaneous exchange and completion, again had to be done as it was the final day of the mortgage offer.
147GTA said:
The actual line is "fee for acting for lender", listed as a separate item to their "fee for professional costs". Their shoddiness also inflated the bill as they also charged me an additional £150+VAT for simultaneous exchange and completion, again had to be done as it was the final day of the mortgage offer.
If you're not happy, invoke the firm's complaints procedure and make a written complaint to the complaints-handling partner.The starting point is the terms of the retainer. If you didn't see and accept it, that may give you a basis for an argument over the fees charged.
If they have acted for the lender to secure the mortgage, that will inevitably be a separate charge to acting on your behalf to deal with conveying the property into your name.
I'm not a conveyancer but I do know that it's not unheard of to charge an additional fee where exchange and completion have to be attended to at the same time. Whether they can charge for it here will depend again on what the retainer provides, or what was discussed and agreed with you. If you weren't told about it, that may well be a basis to challenge it. It's also relevant to ask why it was necessary - whose fault were any delays?
You need to separate the service issues from the contractual obligation to pay. Poor service does not in and of itself relieve you from the obligation to pay. The issue here is whether there is any contractual basis for the firm to seek to charge the additional fee.
If you're not happy with the letter you receive from the complaints handling partner, you can make a complaint to the Legal Ombudsman. It costs you nothing and in my experience they're heavily weighted in favour of the client.
147GTA said:
The shoddy service is linked with the additional charge as I wasn't made aware of it in anyway until after I had paid the first invoice in full, which I thought included their additional charge for doing the job under their fee for professional costs. I never got an estimate beforehand as they sent it to the wrong address and never emailed me a copy.
The actual line is "fee for acting for lender", listed as a separate item to their "fee for professional costs". Their shoddiness also inflated the bill as they also charged me an additional £150+VAT for simultaneous exchange and completion, again had to be done as it was the final day of the mortgage offer.
To be fair, you do say in your opening post that they told your father in law about the charge right at the very beginning. I'm guessing here that due to your location your father in law was acting in some capacity or other on your behalf. I can't see otherwise why a solicitor would be discussing your business with him.The actual line is "fee for acting for lender", listed as a separate item to their "fee for professional costs". Their shoddiness also inflated the bill as they also charged me an additional £150+VAT for simultaneous exchange and completion, again had to be done as it was the final day of the mortgage offer.
Thanks for the replies everyone.
The discussion my FiL had was that they would charge extra, normally they charge £200+VAT for acting on behalf of the lender and that was the assumption he made, wrongly, on how much extra would be charged as he was never given a figure, that was also the extent of my FiL's involvement. As the lender made it clear they had their own solicitor, I'm not sure how they have got to £600+VAT, again I was never given a full break down of this nor did I know about it until after I had already paid and was sent a revised invoice. Just to make it clear, they did not act for the lender so how they can just make a charge up for something they never did I'm not sure.
The exchange and completion had to be done together due to my own solicitor's incompetence, again they never sorted the insurance and left it for me to deal with. There were other issues too where the lender's solicitor would be waiting 2 weeks each time for mine to respond as the junior kept claiming no email was received even though I was being CC'd so could see what was going and had to point it out to my own solicitor. The partner even sent a flippant email to the lender's solicitor after they raised the issues about the junior, making my solicitor look even more silly as he claimed they hadn't responded to his email, which they had done over a week beforehand and again I was CC'd in so knew they did. In fact my own solicitor was sending emails to me to an incorrect email address, @tahoo.com rather than @yahoo.com, just to compound the issues.
They seem to be a victim of their own success as they have just moved to a much larger fancier place so were obviously doing stuff right before, but they have not delivered for me and now seem to have the cheek to ask me to pay extra for something they never made clear in the first place after I already settled up.
The discussion my FiL had was that they would charge extra, normally they charge £200+VAT for acting on behalf of the lender and that was the assumption he made, wrongly, on how much extra would be charged as he was never given a figure, that was also the extent of my FiL's involvement. As the lender made it clear they had their own solicitor, I'm not sure how they have got to £600+VAT, again I was never given a full break down of this nor did I know about it until after I had already paid and was sent a revised invoice. Just to make it clear, they did not act for the lender so how they can just make a charge up for something they never did I'm not sure.
The exchange and completion had to be done together due to my own solicitor's incompetence, again they never sorted the insurance and left it for me to deal with. There were other issues too where the lender's solicitor would be waiting 2 weeks each time for mine to respond as the junior kept claiming no email was received even though I was being CC'd so could see what was going and had to point it out to my own solicitor. The partner even sent a flippant email to the lender's solicitor after they raised the issues about the junior, making my solicitor look even more silly as he claimed they hadn't responded to his email, which they had done over a week beforehand and again I was CC'd in so knew they did. In fact my own solicitor was sending emails to me to an incorrect email address, @tahoo.com rather than @yahoo.com, just to compound the issues.
They seem to be a victim of their own success as they have just moved to a much larger fancier place so were obviously doing stuff right before, but they have not delivered for me and now seem to have the cheek to ask me to pay extra for something they never made clear in the first place after I already settled up.
So hang on, now the fee is for something they didn't do? They were planning to do it but didn't? I'm struggling to follow tbh.
They are billing you for representing the lender, but they never actually represented the lender. Had they done so, you would have expected a charge of circa £200+VAT rather than £600+VAT, is that the long and short of it?
They are billing you for representing the lender, but they never actually represented the lender. Had they done so, you would have expected a charge of circa £200+VAT rather than £600+VAT, is that the long and short of it?
Usget said:
So hang on, now the fee is for something they didn't do? They were planning to do it but didn't? I'm struggling to follow tbh.
They are billing you for representing the lender, but they never actually represented the lender. Had they done so, you would have expected a charge of circa £200+VAT rather than £600+VAT, is that the long and short of it?
They didn't represent the lender as the lender had their own solicitor who I paid for, they have however in the revised invoice billed the extra charge under "fee for acting for lender".They are billing you for representing the lender, but they never actually represented the lender. Had they done so, you would have expected a charge of circa £200+VAT rather than £600+VAT, is that the long and short of it?
The firm's normal fee for acting for a lender in a purchase is £200+VAT, which is why I'm disputing why I'm paying £600+VAT extra just for dealing with this lender when they only represented me.
Fair enough. In which case they haven't provided the service they're billing for, and you can tell them, calmly and politely, in writing, to sod off. Can you send them something from the conveyancers who *did* act for the lender, at your cost, demonstrating that they were the only firm instructed to do so?
As an aside, I am always staggered by how cheaply people pay for conveyancing.
The fees have been driven down so aggressively that it is no wonder that almost everyone - to a man - seems to be disappointed with the quality of service they receive in house purchases. Yes, the conveyances are often cavalier and don't give the required attention to detail a lot of the time, but if you want to pay c.£400 for 10-20 hours' work, you shouldn't expect gold standard service. These guys have to make their money somehow and it's only by farming the work out to minions that they are able to do it. I have a lot of sympathy with those guys who work for peanuts and then get slated for not giving a Magic Circle standard of service.
Personally, I think the purchase of your house - the most expensive asset 99.9% of us will own - deserves a bit more attention than finding the cheapest conveyances you can. False economy in my view
OP - this is definitely not directed at your situation and the weird way your bills are being calculated, by the way!
The fees have been driven down so aggressively that it is no wonder that almost everyone - to a man - seems to be disappointed with the quality of service they receive in house purchases. Yes, the conveyances are often cavalier and don't give the required attention to detail a lot of the time, but if you want to pay c.£400 for 10-20 hours' work, you shouldn't expect gold standard service. These guys have to make their money somehow and it's only by farming the work out to minions that they are able to do it. I have a lot of sympathy with those guys who work for peanuts and then get slated for not giving a Magic Circle standard of service.
Personally, I think the purchase of your house - the most expensive asset 99.9% of us will own - deserves a bit more attention than finding the cheapest conveyances you can. False economy in my view
OP - this is definitely not directed at your situation and the weird way your bills are being calculated, by the way!
tinnitusjosh said:
As an aside, I am always staggered by how cheaply people pay for conveyancing.
The fees have been driven down so aggressively that it is no wonder that almost everyone - to a man - seems to be disappointed with the quality of service they receive in house purchases. Yes, the conveyances are often cavalier and don't give the required attention to detail a lot of the time, but if you want to pay c.£400 for 10-20 hours' work, you shouldn't expect gold standard service. These guys have to make their money somehow and it's only by farming the work out to minions that they are able to do it. I have a lot of sympathy with those guys who work for peanuts and then get slated for not giving a Magic Circle standard of service.
Personally, I think the purchase of your house - the most expensive asset 99.9% of us will own - deserves a bit more attention than finding the cheapest conveyances you can. False economy in my view
OP - this is definitely not directed at your situation and the weird way your bills are being calculated, by the way!
I actually agree with you which is why I try to use someone that comes recommended instead of the cheapest option, which would have been to use the lender's solicitors as then they would have waived their fee of £550+VAT. I have used this firm before and my FiL uses them a lot too but like I said they seem to have become a victim of their own success and I shouldn't be paying extra because of their mistakes.The fees have been driven down so aggressively that it is no wonder that almost everyone - to a man - seems to be disappointed with the quality of service they receive in house purchases. Yes, the conveyances are often cavalier and don't give the required attention to detail a lot of the time, but if you want to pay c.£400 for 10-20 hours' work, you shouldn't expect gold standard service. These guys have to make their money somehow and it's only by farming the work out to minions that they are able to do it. I have a lot of sympathy with those guys who work for peanuts and then get slated for not giving a Magic Circle standard of service.
Personally, I think the purchase of your house - the most expensive asset 99.9% of us will own - deserves a bit more attention than finding the cheapest conveyances you can. False economy in my view
OP - this is definitely not directed at your situation and the weird way your bills are being calculated, by the way!
This seems actually quite straightforward. If your solicitors didn't act for the lender then they can't charge any "fee for acting for lender", whether it's £200 or £600.
I take it you never received the original client care letter. Most conveyancing these days is done to a fixed price, so you need to get a copy of the original letter stating the fees. Once you know what they quoted you will know exactly where you stand.
The additional charge of £150 for exchanging and completing simultaneously can't be charged if it was necessitated by the solicitor's incompetence.
So far as the unoccupied insurance policy is concerned these can be obtained in a couple of minutes. I've used this lot, and you will see that they're specifically endorsed by the Law Society - https://www.pib-insurance.com/sectors/property/uno...
Once you know what they quoted at the outset I would write to them making these points and saying that you are only prepared to pay the fee as quoted, and that if they won't accept it you wish to initiate their complaints procedure, and that you will, if necessary, lodge a complaint with the Legal Ombudsman.
Any reference to LeO strikes terror into the heart of the average conveyancing solicitor, as LeO is notoriously biased in favour of the client, and it will cost the solicitors £400 if he finds against them.
I take it you never received the original client care letter. Most conveyancing these days is done to a fixed price, so you need to get a copy of the original letter stating the fees. Once you know what they quoted you will know exactly where you stand.
The additional charge of £150 for exchanging and completing simultaneously can't be charged if it was necessitated by the solicitor's incompetence.
So far as the unoccupied insurance policy is concerned these can be obtained in a couple of minutes. I've used this lot, and you will see that they're specifically endorsed by the Law Society - https://www.pib-insurance.com/sectors/property/uno...
Once you know what they quoted at the outset I would write to them making these points and saying that you are only prepared to pay the fee as quoted, and that if they won't accept it you wish to initiate their complaints procedure, and that you will, if necessary, lodge a complaint with the Legal Ombudsman.
Any reference to LeO strikes terror into the heart of the average conveyancing solicitor, as LeO is notoriously biased in favour of the client, and it will cost the solicitors £400 if he finds against them.
I’m sorry but I can’t help you but feel your pain.
When I got divorced (real simple no house, no kids only thing of value my pensions to which my ex and I had agreed a value of cash to pay her out.) I spent half the time running the paperwork about for them. Constantly chasing them to get things done. Having to resend things back to them because they lost them.
Final nail in the coffin was when I got my invoice.
Legal services £2200 + vat
I couldn’t believe the cost it was literally 3 or 4 forms and a couple of stamps from a judge. So I asked for a broken down bill to see how they got to that amount to which they responded.
There is now an additional £25 to pay for this letter informing you that to produce an itemised bill is £200.
FML what a robbing bunch of shisters.
When I got divorced (real simple no house, no kids only thing of value my pensions to which my ex and I had agreed a value of cash to pay her out.) I spent half the time running the paperwork about for them. Constantly chasing them to get things done. Having to resend things back to them because they lost them.
Final nail in the coffin was when I got my invoice.
Legal services £2200 + vat
I couldn’t believe the cost it was literally 3 or 4 forms and a couple of stamps from a judge. So I asked for a broken down bill to see how they got to that amount to which they responded.
There is now an additional £25 to pay for this letter informing you that to produce an itemised bill is £200.
FML what a robbing bunch of shisters.
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