Sorn - 'Private' parking

[mayerhofenwin]

Hopefully a quick easy one.

Bought a bargain car, Gets dropped off in the morning. Don't wan't to fall foul of CIE or road tax ETC. It will likely sit and do nothing for 2 months.....I don't have a driveway. The parking at my house is not a driveway, but open parking - it has NOT been adopted by the local authority, And I Pay 1/56th of the upkeep. Its in Scotland FYI.

Can I sorn the car, and keep it in the parking area?

[clockworks]

Seem to remember someone posting here the other day who was in a similar situation, but with a dedicated parking space that went with their flat. Car ended up being towed as the management company wasn't happy with it not being taxed?

[Aretnap]

Yes, if it's untaxed (and therefore SORNed) you can keep it anywhere other than a public road, which is defined as a road repairable at public expense (or in Scotland a road which a roads authority have a duty to maintain, which means essentially the same thing).

There might be some clauses in your deeds about vehicles in the car park having to be taxed, roadworthy etc so you may want to check them - but even if then breaching the terms of the deeds doesn't make it an offence to keep the car there - it just means that the other owners or management company (or whatever the Scottish equivalent is) could insist that you move it.

If the car park is used by the general public (eg as a short cut) then the requirement for the car to have at least third party insurance would still apply - that's based on different principles and depends on who uses the land rather than who owns it or pays for its upkeep.

[mayerhofenwin]

Aretnap said:

Yes, if it's untaxed (and therefore SORNed) you can keep it anywhere other than a public road, which is defined as a road repairable at public expense (or in Scotland a road which a roads authority have a duty to maintain, which means essentially the same thing).

There might be some clauses in your deeds about vehicles in the car park having to be taxed, roadworthy etc so you may want to check them - but even if then breaching the terms of the deeds doesn't make it an offence to keep the car there - it just means that the other owners or management company (or whatever the Scottish equivalent is) could insist that you move it.

If the car park is used by the general public (eg as a short cut) then the requirement for the car to have at least third party insurance would still apply - that's based on different principles and depends on who uses the land rather than who owns it or pays for its upkeep.

Great info. Though, I HAVE seen cars with a DVLA clamp on them, in the 'car park' in question. Perhaps they had no been registered as SORN?

[SS2.]

mayerhofenwin said:

Though, I HAVE seen cars with a DVLA clamp on them, in the 'car park' in question.

They have the power to immobilise untaxed vehicles in areas other than 'a public road'. Whilst they can't enter the curtilage of a private dwelling, they can immobilise on housing association property, unadopted roads, public car parks, etc.

More here.

[Pothole]

Put a cover over it? Can't be moved to see the reg plate.

[DickyC]

A local garage owner plays cat and mouse with dodgy cars, dodgy parking and VOSA. Knowing VOSA have limited powers, he takes the plates off the cars. This might not be a permanent solution but it certainly wins him time.

[DickyC]

I guess I'm saying much the same as Pothole.

[mayerhofenwin]

Pothole said:

Put a cover over it? Can't be moved to see the reg plate.

I've heard this - but never seen it in any legislation etc.

Keen to know more!

[surveyor_101]

Personally, the only place I would keep a SORN car is on private land or my or relatives private driveway.

Residential off road parking that the DVLA have clamped in the past is asking for trouble. Whether your a tenant or a property owner there is normally something in the deeds or contract that precludes working on cars or storing unlicenced car communal car parks or allocated spaces outside your property boundary.

[mayerhofenwin]

surveyor_101 said:

Personally, the only place I would keep a SORN car is on private land or my or relatives private driveway.

Residential off road parking that the DVLA have clamped in the past is asking for trouble. Whether your a tenant or a property owner there is normally something in the deeds or contract that precludes working on cars or storing unlicenced car communal car parks or allocated spaces outside your property boundary.

Owner - and deeds were written in 1950, I doubt there is much in it about cars ;-)

I suppose this all comes down to the scots definition of a public road!

[imagineifyeswill]

SS2. said:

mayerhofenwin said:

Though, I HAVE seen cars with a DVLA clamp on them, in the 'car park' in question.

They have the power to immobilise untaxed vehicles in areas other than 'a public road'. Whilst they can't enter the curtilage of a private dwelling, they can immobilise on housing association property, unadopted roads, public car parks, etc.

More here.

I used to run a breakdown/recovery company which was contracted by DVLA for a few weeks to pick up untaxed vehicles clamped by there agents during their annual purge, and store them for 3 weeks before destruction.

One vehicle we were asked to pick up was clamped in the parking area outside a block of private apartments, the owner susequently kicked up and we were told to return the vehicle as the parking belonged to that apartment blocks and legally was private property, this was in Scotland.

I also used to occasionally pick up vehicles forcibly reposessed by reposession agents and they also had to return a couple of vehicles because they wre snatched from private property and that apparently is not legal.

[Gavia]

mayerhofenwin said:

Owner - and deeds were written in 1950, I doubt there is much in it about cars ;-)

I suppose this all comes down to the scots definition of a public road!

When was the parking area built? Were there rules about that added to the lease of each property? There must be something in place as you say you pay 1/56th of the upkeep.

[Driver101]

Are all the spaces allocated, or are some of the spaces for visitors?

I thought I read in the past that areas that the public have access to the car needs to be taxed and insured?

Hopefully there is plenty of spaces and understanding neighbours. Abandoned looking cars annoy people quickly.

[Truffs]

Driver101 said:

Abandoned looking cars annoy people quickly.

Yes I remember some passive aggressive sticking labels all over my Mk2 Golf in our new build private parking area. The notes had lots of crap on them but were basically saying “abandond please scrap.” Despite me saying on the same note not abandond please come round to 98 for a cuppa. It was there for about 6 months while the Will and all was processed and I finally owned the car properly.

It must have pleased them greatly when I could finally drive it around.

Was probably worth more than whatever they were driving anyway but then they kindly started to report me for trying to sell cars from home but that is another story. Don’t live there now, Thank God though I do miss the house.

Edited by Truffs on Saturday 4th August 15:19

Edited by Truffs on Monday 6th August 22:20

[4rephill]

Truffs said:

Driver101 said:

Abandoned looking cars annoy people quickly.

Yes I remember some passive aggressive sticking labels all over my Mk2 Golf in our new build private parking area. The notes had lots of crap on them but were basically saying “abandonded please scrap.” Despite me saying on the same note not abandonded please come round to 98 for a cuppa. It was there for about 6 months while the Will and all was processed and I finally owned the car properly.

It must have pleased them greatly when I could finally drive it around.

Was probably worth more than whatever they were driving anyway but then they kindly started to report me for trying to sell cars from home but that is another story. Don’t live there now, Thank God though I do miss the house.

Edited by Truffs on Saturday 4th August 15:19

Be grateful they weren't members on this forum!

The car would (supposedly) have either been dragged into the middle of the road to cause a blockage, resulting in the Police removing it, or they would have simply set it on fire - Because that's the PH way of dealing with cars that you don't like the look of apparently!

(Oh, and you would have found frozen sausages hammered into your lawn for the full PH vendetta effect! )

[Aretnap]

mayerhofenwin said:

Great info. Though, I HAVE seen cars with a DVLA clamp on them, in the 'car park' in question. Perhaps they had no been registered as SORN?

I would presume so, yes. Section 29 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act is the part which makes it an offence to keep an untaxed vehicle - unless you have SORNed it (or unless one of a few other exemptions applies). If you are committing that offence the car can be clamped anywhere it is found - except within the curtilage of a dwelling (which basically means a private garden or driveway). However if it HAS been SORNed it can legally be kept anywhere which except a road maintained at public expense. The document SS2 links to makes that clear (paragraph 7.3).

[Aretnap]

Driver101 said:

Are all the spaces allocated, or are some of the spaces for visitors?

I thought I read in the past that areas that the public have access to the car needs to be taxed and insured?

Insured yes but not necessarily taxed. Tax and insurance are covered by completely separate legislation. Insurance is required anywhere which is used by the public (regardless of who owns the land or pays for its upkeep) - but tax is only required on a road maintained at public expense.

[QuickQuack]

SS2. said:

mayerhofenwin said:

Though, I HAVE seen cars with a DVLA clamp on them, in the 'car park' in question.

They have the power to immobilise untaxed vehicles in areas other than 'a public road'. Whilst they can't enter the curtilage of a private dwelling, they can immobilise on housing association property, unadopted roads, public car parks, etc.

More here.

From SS2's link:

legislation.gov.uk said:

EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM TO THE VEHICLE EXCISE DUTY (IMMOBILISATION, REMOVAL AND DISPOSAL OF VEHICLES) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2008
2008 No. 2266
7.2 If the current keeper of an unlicensed vehicle is not properly recorded on the DVLA register the only recourse is to clamp or impound the vehicle. The policy intention is to prevent evaders of vehicle excise duty from using off-road areas such as unadopted roads, commons, public car parks or roads maintained by Housing Associations to place themselves beyond the reach of the enforcement authorities.
7.3 As these areas are off the public road it will still be possible to make a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) instead of licensing. This measure will therefore force those who are not properly registered with DVLA to submit their details either through licensing or making a SORN.

As long as you make the SORN declaration, it should be fine.

[Peter911]

Aretnap said:

Insured yes but not necessarily taxed. Tax and insurance are covered by completely separate legislation. Insurance is required anywhere which is used by the public (regardless of who owns the land or pays for its upkeep) - but tax is only required on a road maintained at public expense.

I would challenge the 'having to be insured' aspect of this as being incorrect. What is your source?