Parking charge in Scotland. Draft reply to PCN
Discussion
Vanordinaire said:
My daughter's car was parked in a retail park car park, time limited to 3.5 hours. The occupants were shopping/eating at the retail park for 3 hours 50 minutes. The car was photographed by ANPR cameras entering and leaving.
She has been sent a PCN by UKPC as the registered keeper 'inviting' her to either pay a parking charge of £60 (and claim the charge back from the driver) or to provide them with driver details so that they can pursue them. For her own reasons, she doesn't want to do either of these.
I've drafted a reply letter and would be grateful for any advice before sending.
'With reference to your letter of...., I regret that I am unable to provide you with details of the driver of my car on .....
I am not liable for any charge incurred by the driver so am unwilling to pay the parking charge.I am not willing to enter into further correspondence on this matter, please do not pass my details onto any other party as I have no interest or liability in this matter.
Yours sincerely....'
Yep, that sounds good. Can't believe no one else has ever thought of sending a letter like that before, now everyone can send a similar letter to yours to UKPC and no one will ever have to pay for parking again. She has been sent a PCN by UKPC as the registered keeper 'inviting' her to either pay a parking charge of £60 (and claim the charge back from the driver) or to provide them with driver details so that they can pursue them. For her own reasons, she doesn't want to do either of these.
I've drafted a reply letter and would be grateful for any advice before sending.
'With reference to your letter of...., I regret that I am unable to provide you with details of the driver of my car on .....
I am not liable for any charge incurred by the driver so am unwilling to pay the parking charge.I am not willing to enter into further correspondence on this matter, please do not pass my details onto any other party as I have no interest or liability in this matter.
Yours sincerely....'
Or maybe you could just explain why she shouldn't pay the charge (or give driver details) after admitting the car overstayed the permitted time.
It is because of people like you and your daughter why these parking companies exist.
Why bother. They give 2 options, either pay or provide driver details. You don't want to do either, there is no third option. As you are not providing anything that they want then don't waste the money on a stamp. If you think they will take any notice of the "don't pass on my details" then you are sadly mistaken.
Vanordinaire said:
, I regret that I am unable to provide you with details of the driver of my car on .....
.'
Just re-read your post and find this line rathere strange..'
Does this mean she 'can't' or 'won't' supply the details required?
Was your daughter driving her car or was someone else?
Does she actually know who was driving it.?
Was the car insured for whoever was driving it?
Was somebody driving it who shouldn't have been?
Was she with someone she shouldn't have been with?
Was she shagging the bosses husband?
Why can't she write her own letters?
£60 sounds quite cheap to me to keep the lid on this can of worms.
All you'd be doing by writing to UKPC is giving them a confirmed contact to harass further. It's unlikely that they'll ever make a legal claim in Scotland so the best course of action is to do nothing. Because she was spending money in the centre - a good reason for the overstay - I'd ask the centre management to get the charge cancelled but if they refuse, still don't contact or respond to UKPC, but keep all of their correspondence.
The invitation to name the driver only applies in England and Wales - it's a requirement of POFA 2012 which doesn't apply in Scotland.
Although we do transfer liability on these for my fleet, when that is rejected I have a simple template letter reminding them of POFA and that if they want to take it further with my company then we'll discuss it in front of a judge.
To date, none of them have taken me up on that offer.
It will get passed to Debt Recovery Plus if it's a UKPC ticket, but again a simple letter reminding them of POFA will shut them up.
Although we do transfer liability on these for my fleet, when that is rejected I have a simple template letter reminding them of POFA and that if they want to take it further with my company then we'll discuss it in front of a judge.
To date, none of them have taken me up on that offer.
It will get passed to Debt Recovery Plus if it's a UKPC ticket, but again a simple letter reminding them of POFA will shut them up.
If it's Scotland and the RK lives in Scotland then tell them that RK liability doesn't apply and tell them to take it up with the driver. Of course you won't make the driver either.
Inform them that any further contact will be deemed as harrassment and it will be reported appropriately
Inform them that any further contact will be deemed as harrassment and it will be reported appropriately
got one of these about 3 months ago.
annoying this it was a paid car park and I had ruddy paid.
sent the wife a letter, she sent them my details. I replied sending them her details.
not heard back since
. could be fun though as the vehicle in question has an any driver over 25 policy on it. wonder how long I could keep sending them details for before the actually take me to court and I produce proof of payment
annoying this it was a paid car park and I had ruddy paid.
sent the wife a letter, she sent them my details. I replied sending them her details.
not heard back since
. could be fun though as the vehicle in question has an any driver over 25 policy on it. wonder how long I could keep sending them details for before the actually take me to court and I produce proof of payment A year or so ago was in a similar location and situation to the OP re. the parking charge notice.
Best advice in Scotland (if on private land, not council owned) is not to enter into any correspondence/contact with them at all. Disclose nothing; no details of your vehicle, yourself or those of anyone else who may drive your car. Eventually they will pass your case onto a debt recovery agency. The one they used for me was based in Cheltenham who sent several threatening letters with lots of capitalised letters in bold type telling me how serious this charge was. (Later they tried to contact me by phone.) The charge kept getting ramped up with successive letters but I just ignored all of it since they were just playing mind games. Everyone knows that parking charges on private land in Scotland apply to the driver of the car, not necessarily the owner. The onus is on the PCN company to establish the identity of the driver.
In my case they found my landline phone number via directory enquiries (...I know, I'm very last century..) and phoned occasionally. I never confirmed my name when picking up the call and just hung up when they disclosed who they were. The very last phone contact I got was from an aggressive male with a Glaswegian accent. He too had the phone put down on him, and that was the last I heard of the matter.
Health warning: One driver in Scotland parked in one place a huge number of times and received over 200 parking charge notices. She was an easy target for the parking charge company and they went after her:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/03/britai...
The parking charge companies and their debt collection cousins made a big deal about this particular case and got m'learned friends involved since the defendant was very easy to identify, but this case was exceptional and certainly not the rule. Generally speaking, makes no financial sense for them to get legal over a small sum for a single PCN.
Here's some good advice from Citizens Advice Scotland:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and...
Best advice in Scotland (if on private land, not council owned) is not to enter into any correspondence/contact with them at all. Disclose nothing; no details of your vehicle, yourself or those of anyone else who may drive your car. Eventually they will pass your case onto a debt recovery agency. The one they used for me was based in Cheltenham who sent several threatening letters with lots of capitalised letters in bold type telling me how serious this charge was. (Later they tried to contact me by phone.) The charge kept getting ramped up with successive letters but I just ignored all of it since they were just playing mind games. Everyone knows that parking charges on private land in Scotland apply to the driver of the car, not necessarily the owner. The onus is on the PCN company to establish the identity of the driver.
In my case they found my landline phone number via directory enquiries (...I know, I'm very last century..) and phoned occasionally. I never confirmed my name when picking up the call and just hung up when they disclosed who they were. The very last phone contact I got was from an aggressive male with a Glaswegian accent. He too had the phone put down on him, and that was the last I heard of the matter.
Health warning: One driver in Scotland parked in one place a huge number of times and received over 200 parking charge notices. She was an easy target for the parking charge company and they went after her:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/03/britai...
The parking charge companies and their debt collection cousins made a big deal about this particular case and got m'learned friends involved since the defendant was very easy to identify, but this case was exceptional and certainly not the rule. Generally speaking, makes no financial sense for them to get legal over a small sum for a single PCN.
Here's some good advice from Citizens Advice Scotland:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and...
Do not enter into any correspondence with UKPC. The best thing is to ignore the speculative invoice as in Scotland you have no obligation to identify the driver. You will receive about 4 threatening letters from their solicitors and then they will stop. I know this as both the wife and daughter have had this experience and just ignored them.
Pav
You dont have to reside in Scotland to ignore these threats
Just as long as the 'offence' occurs in Scotland
I understand the procedure is to write just once stating that they should take this matter up with the driver, the name of whom i am not legally required to divulge to you.
Get a proof of posting from Post Office
DO NOT send it recorded /registered or anything that needs a signature as they can refuse it
A normal first class letter is deemed to be deilvered 2 days after posting
AND AS ALWAYS Never Never Never say or infer who was driving ALWAYS write..the driver saw this, the driver saw that, without a name they are stuffed
You dont have to reside in Scotland to ignore these threats
Just as long as the 'offence' occurs in Scotland
I understand the procedure is to write just once stating that they should take this matter up with the driver, the name of whom i am not legally required to divulge to you.
Get a proof of posting from Post Office
DO NOT send it recorded /registered or anything that needs a signature as they can refuse it
A normal first class letter is deemed to be deilvered 2 days after posting
AND AS ALWAYS Never Never Never say or infer who was driving ALWAYS write..the driver saw this, the driver saw that, without a name they are stuffed
NGee said:
Yep, that sounds good. Can't believe no one else has ever thought of sending a letter like that before, now everyone can send a similar letter to yours to UKPC and no one will ever have to pay for parking again.
Or maybe you could just explain why she shouldn't pay the charge (or give driver details) after admitting the car overstayed the permitted time.
It is because of people like you and your daughter why these parking companies exist.
I agree...why the hell should motorists who read the signs and abide by the terms subsidise your daughter. She overstayed...pay the fine Or maybe you could just explain why she shouldn't pay the charge (or give driver details) after admitting the car overstayed the permitted time.
It is because of people like you and your daughter why these parking companies exist.
Bobtherallyfan said:
I agree...why the hell should motorists who read the signs and abide by the terms subsidise your daughter. She overstayed...pay the fine invoice.
FTFY.FFS, how many times does it have to be spelled out that these will be civil actions for non payment and heard in a County Court before a judge.
Magistrates deal with fines. Railway byelaw 14 cases are decided there but the action has to be brought by the TOC not a PPC.
Bobtherallyfan said:
NGee said:
Yep, that sounds good. Can't believe no one else has ever thought of sending a letter like that before, now everyone can send a similar letter to yours to UKPC and no one will ever have to pay for parking again.
Or maybe you could just explain why she shouldn't pay the charge (or give driver details) after admitting the car overstayed the permitted time.
It is because of people like you and your daughter why these parking companies exist.
I agree...why the hell should motorists who read the signs and abide by the terms subsidise your daughter. She overstayed...pay the fine Or maybe you could just explain why she shouldn't pay the charge (or give driver details) after admitting the car overstayed the permitted time.
It is because of people like you and your daughter why these parking companies exist.
The reason she isn't volunteering to pay or disclose the driver's details are twofold, one is that she's morally right , the other is that she doesn't have to, as I thought, and as other more sensible posters have pointed out, they don't have a leg to stand on.
silverfoxcc said:
Pav
You dont have to reside in Scotland to ignore these threats
Just as long as the 'offence' occurs in Scotland
I understand the procedure is to write just once stating that they should take this matter up with the driver, the name of whom i am not legally required to divulge to you.
Get a proof of posting from Post Office
DO NOT send it recorded /registered or anything that needs a signature as they can refuse it
A normal first class letter is deemed to be deilvered 2 days after posting
AND AS ALWAYS Never Never Never say or infer who was driving ALWAYS write..the driver saw this, the driver saw that, without a name they are stuffed
I know it's just easier that's all. You dont have to reside in Scotland to ignore these threats
Just as long as the 'offence' occurs in Scotland
I understand the procedure is to write just once stating that they should take this matter up with the driver, the name of whom i am not legally required to divulge to you.
Get a proof of posting from Post Office
DO NOT send it recorded /registered or anything that needs a signature as they can refuse it
A normal first class letter is deemed to be deilvered 2 days after posting
AND AS ALWAYS Never Never Never say or infer who was driving ALWAYS write..the driver saw this, the driver saw that, without a name they are stuffed
according to Parking prankster, UKPC have been banned from accessing DVLA records. I don't know if this is still the case, but if it is how did they legally obtain your details?
S11Steve said:
The invitation to name the driver only applies in England and Wales - it's a requirement of POFA 2012 which doesn't apply in Scotland.
pavarotti1980 said:
If it's Scotland and the RK lives in Scotland then tell them that RK liability doesn't apply and tell them to take it up with the driver. Of course you won't make the driver either.
silverfoxcc said:
Pav You dont have to reside in Scotland to ignore these threats
To clarify 1. In Scotland and Scottish, no Pofa ?
2. In Scotland and English/welsh, no pofa ?
3. In England and Scottish, pofa?
4. In England and English/Welsh, pofa ?
So it's all dependent where the 'incursion' took place rather than the registered address of the vehicle owner or registered address of the driver ?
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