NIP: 53 mph in a 40 mph, but speed limit sign obscured

[JimClark49]

Hi All,

I received a NIP for 53mph in a 40mph zone as detected by a camera van on A5025:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3019684,-4.52661...

The section of road before the limit change was national speed limit (60mph). As you will see from the pictures I have taken today, the speed limit signs (nearside and offside) at the start of the limit change are covered by overgrown bushes and as such are not clearly visible. I totally missed the change to 40mph for this reason.

I am wondering whether I have a case for appeal? I feel that it will be thrown out as there is a smaller repeater sign just before the speed van comes into range...and it could be argued that while I missed the first sign, I should have seen the smaller repeater sign.

Also, am I looking at 3 points and £100 fine, or is the penalty more severe?

[Eddieslofart]

Personally, i think you have a fair case. But...IANAL.

[Pica-Pica]

I don’t know legally, but an obscured sign seems solid grounds for appeal. Make sure you have the photo fully documented and dated.

As a supplementary, I have seen speed limits with just one sign obscured, and wondered what the situation there would be.

[ghe13rte]

Go back and try the camera in the middle of the road where you would have been when driving rather than within the junction to the left.

[JimClark49]

ghe13rte said:

Go back and try the camera in the middle of the road where you would have been when driving rather than within the junction to the left.

It's not a junction, its a layby as seen in second pic. Picture 1 is cropped from picture 2 to zoom closer to signs.
I don't fancy standing in middle of busy country road to take another picture!

To add more information...as you come closer to the signs on the road, the 40mph can be seen in last 1-2 seconds. However, from further away (i.e. start of layby and closer) they are not immediately obvious.

At present, I am merely exploring a possibility of an appeal being realistic or not.

[JNW1]

Not sure how these things work but would an appeal mean having to contest the NIP in court and if so - and the verdict went against you - would that mean a penalty which could be more severe than 3 points and a fine? I sympathise with your position but not sure I'd risk a heavier punishment if something like a SAC was on offer!

[Cliftonite]

Pica-Pica said:

I don’t know legally, but an obscured sign seems solid grounds for appeal. Make sure you have the photo fully documented and dated.

As a supplementary, I have seen speed limits with just one sign obscured, and wondered what the situation there would be.

The absolute requirement for two signs was removed a year or two ago . . .

[roadsmash]

JimClark49 said:

I feel that it will be thrown out as there is a smaller repeater sign just before the speed van comes into range...and it could be argued that while I missed the first sign, I should have seen the smaller repeater sign.

Correct. No chance of appeal.

As requested, in England for 53mph in a 40mph limit; you may receive 3 points and up to 50% of your weekly wage as a fine.

[Red Devil]

JimClark49 said:

I am wondering whether I have a case for appeal? I feel that it will be thrown out as there is a smaller repeater sign just before the speed van comes into range...and it could be argued that while I missed the first sign, I should have seen the smaller repeater sign.

This one? - https://goo.gl/maps/7RTGxgt3Po7
Presumably the van was lurking in the layby before the B5109 turning.
Unfortunately, even if the main signs were obscured, that repeater has likely screwed you.

[BertBert]

And yes as has been said it's not an appeal. You reject the course or COFP and get a summons, then plead not guilty and have your day. As the fine is likely to be higher, it's not a very appealing option.

Bert

[The Mad Monk]

Red Devil said:

This one? - https://goo.gl/maps/7RTGxgt3Po7

Link no workee.

[agtlaw]

BertBert said:

And yes as has been said it's not an appeal. You reject the course or COFP and get a summons, then plead not guilty and have your day. As the fine is likely to be higher, it's not a very appealing option.

Bert

Costs may be a bigger consideration than the fine.

53/40 is within the threshold for a course. Alternatively, a £100 fixed penalty with 3 points.

Someone wrote something about 50% of weekly income. That’s only relevant if your case is before a court. In which case, 50% of net weekly income is the starting point, not the maximum. The maximum fine here is £1000.

You may have a case. Difficult to tell. A dashcam video would be helpful. I’d be interested in the exact location of the repeater sign, the position of the speedmeter (camera van) and your distance from it at the point of detection

If you have grounds to challenge this then I’d be optimistic that once the case leaves the hands of the police and is reviewed by someone with intelligence then the CPS wouldn’t proceed to trial.

[Glasgowrob]

makes you wonder if they picked the location of the camera van for that specific reason.


there is an argument that you should be aware of road speed limits based on whats around you, but I would 100% argue that one,
and before any of the holier than though brigade pipe up in here that you were speeding should know better take it like a man, get a grip of yourselves. its a motoring forum not the knitting circle. fight it and if worst comes to worst and your worried about costs start a go fund me I'm sure theres a few of us left on here that would chuck a few quid in. put me down for a donation for starters

[ellroy]

My Dad had exactly the same situation some years ago.

Got the points and fine.

Don’t waste your time and breath on it OP, there’s no chance of common sense or justice being applied.

[HantsRat]

Seem like you have stood in the worst stop possible to make the signs hidden. Wait until its quiet and take a picture from the driving position in the middle of the road. If still obscured, you have have grounds for an appeal.

[roadsmash]

agtlaw said:

Someone wrote something about 50% of weekly income. That’s only relevant if your case is before a court. In which case, 50% of net weekly income is the starting point, not the maximum. The maximum fine here is £1000.

Hi AGT, the OP has only received the NIP so far, he may get summoned, or he may get the FPN you speak of. We do not know yet.

53 in a 40 is in the threshold of a summoning, no? So still very possible the OP will get more than a £100 fine.

Or am I mistaken?

[Pica-Pica]

If you just have the NIP, surely you can reply, identifying the driver, and enclose the photo for their attention?

[EU_Foreigner]

There may be a legal argument but I think I would have seen that lower camera sign there which would have worried me.

[SS2.]

roads mash said:

53 in a 40 is in the threshold of a summoning, no? So still very possible the OP will get more than a £100 fine.

Or am I mistaken?

You may be.

The threshold for a fixed penalty is 65mph in a 40mph limit.

[InitialDave]

If nothing else, have a good moan about it to councils, local papers or whatever, and maybe they can be pressured to trim it back and help stop the next poor sod getting nabbed.