Handyman taken a fall from loft
Discussion
Just a quick one..
Handyman sub-contracted to a third party doing some work in the house has just fallen when trying to enter the loft using my ladder, landing on his back.
I put the ladder out, but he's the one that climbed in. I wasn't touching it.
He's hurt himself as the thing that he was carrying has hit him in the face.
Do i need to inform my house insurance company?
Handyman sub-contracted to a third party doing some work in the house has just fallen when trying to enter the loft using my ladder, landing on his back.
I put the ladder out, but he's the one that climbed in. I wasn't touching it.
He's hurt himself as the thing that he was carrying has hit him in the face.
Do i need to inform my house insurance company?
The Surveyor said:
The handyman who employed the sub-contractor has the duty, not you as the homeowner.
If the injury is serious, the Handyman needs to notify the HSE via a RIDDOR (http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/), but before all that, make sure the chap is OK and doesn't need any medical treatment.
That's not strictly true.If the injury is serious, the Handyman needs to notify the HSE via a RIDDOR (http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/), but before all that, make sure the chap is OK and doesn't need any medical treatment.
You, as a home owner, have a duty to ensure visitors to your property are reasonably safe under the Occupiers Liability Act. If (for instance) you put out your loft ladder and the ladder was defective, you could be found negligent and pursued for any injuries the handyman has suffered. Ideally, anyone doing work on/in your house should use their own equipment.
Yes, the contractor who sub-contracted him will have EL insurance for their employees, but they will argue he is not an employee (as he's a subby) and therefore owe him no duty.
I have dealt with claims in this exact scenario before (acting for the homeowner to defend a claim brought by an engineer who was trying to access the loft) and that claim succeeded as the homeowner's loft ladder was clearly defective and the homeowner knew this but let him use it anyway.
I would be contacting my home insurers ASAP if I were you OP - they will need to investigate this fully now whilst everything is still fresh in your memory. Take lots of photos of the ladder, loft area etc and make sure you can show it was in good working order.
Nezquick said:
The Surveyor said:
The handyman who employed the sub-contractor has the duty, not you as the homeowner.
If the injury is serious, the Handyman needs to notify the HSE via a RIDDOR (http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/), but before all that, make sure the chap is OK and doesn't need any medical treatment.
That's not strictly true.If the injury is serious, the Handyman needs to notify the HSE via a RIDDOR (http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/), but before all that, make sure the chap is OK and doesn't need any medical treatment.
You, as a home owner, have a duty to ensure visitors to your property are reasonably safe under the Occupiers Liability Act. If (for instance) you put out your loft ladder and the ladder was defective, you could be found negligent and pursued for any injuries the handyman has suffered. Ideally, anyone doing work on/in your house should use their own equipment.
Yes, the contractor who sub-contracted him will have EL insurance for their employees, but they will argue he is not an employee (as he's a subby) and therefore owe him no duty.
I have dealt with claims in this exact scenario before (acting for the homeowner to defend a claim brought by an engineer who was trying to access the loft) and that claim succeeded as the homeowner's loft ladder was clearly defective and the homeowner knew this but let him use it anyway.
I would be contacting my home insurers ASAP if I were you OP - they will need to investigate this fully now whilst everything is still fresh in your memory. Take lots of photos of the ladder, loft area etc and make sure you can show it was in good working order.
The Surveyor said:
The handyman who employed the sub-contractor has the duty, not you as the homeowner.
....
If I were you I would stick to the day job, as your amateur lawyering is not going very well. Top marks for confident expression of opinion. Zero marks for correctness of opinion. ....
The Surveyor said:
The OP didn't say the ladder broke, he says he fell. You are correct that the OP will be liable for negligence if he knowingly let the sub-contractor use a broken ladder, but that wasn't what he said.
To be fair - he didn't say how he fell or what condition the ladder was in. Both important points from a lawyers point of view.Ladder is in fully working condition. It’s practically brand new.
It was a blink of an eye accident and he was part way into the loft. Not entirely sure what happened. I think he lost his footing, or reached up and wasn’t sure footed.
He carried on with his job and climbed into the loft after.
He says he is ok. And nose hurts. Obviously was concerned for him, and made sure he was ok. And if he wanted a doctor/ambulance etc.
It was a blink of an eye accident and he was part way into the loft. Not entirely sure what happened. I think he lost his footing, or reached up and wasn’t sure footed.
He carried on with his job and climbed into the loft after.
He says he is ok. And nose hurts. Obviously was concerned for him, and made sure he was ok. And if he wanted a doctor/ambulance etc.
The Surveyor started with the confident (and wrong) assertion that the homeowner has no duty. He now appears to be accepting that the homeowner has a duty (as indeed he/she does) but arguing the toss about whether the duty has been breached. That depends on the facts, and of those we have insufficient to form a view. The fall might be the fault of the fallen bloke for carrying a load in a careless way, or it might be someone else's fault. That all depends on what actually happened.
Breadvan72 said:
The Surveyor said:
The handyman who employed the sub-contractor has the duty, not you as the homeowner.
....
If I were you I would stick to the day job, as your amateur lawyering is not going very well. Top marks for confident expression of opinion. Zero marks for correctness of opinion. ....
Happy to be educated rather than simply told I'm wrong.
The Surveyor said:
Breadvan72 said:
The Surveyor said:
The handyman who employed the sub-contractor has the duty, not you as the homeowner.
....
If I were you I would stick to the day job, as your amateur lawyering is not going very well. Top marks for confident expression of opinion. Zero marks for correctness of opinion. ....
Happy to be educated rather than simply told I'm wrong.
If the OP has any inkling that he may get dragged into this, he needs to advise his insurers.
Your ladder may well be perfect and brand new but I bet its a DIY spec to BS2037 class 3 rating.
Any trade use would be required to be to BSEN131 class 2 rating.
Main contractor would usually be responsible, I would expect any competent subbie to be providing all his own equipment to the required spec.
Why were you providing equipment to a contractor working for you? We would NEVER touch a customers equipment, it's impossible to identify it's safety!
Any trade use would be required to be to BSEN131 class 2 rating.
Main contractor would usually be responsible, I would expect any competent subbie to be providing all his own equipment to the required spec.
Why were you providing equipment to a contractor working for you? We would NEVER touch a customers equipment, it's impossible to identify it's safety!
All accidents need to be recorded ,he should file an accident report with his employer or who put him to work ,as for the ladder if he chose to use it usually most workers at height are ladder trained , am l competent to carry out the task?can the job be done safely ?have I the right equipment to carry out the job ? Domestic ladders aren’t the best if he chose to use it,could he get 3 points of contact ?why not use a foldable small platform when the job was pre sited ,it only when you meet people that are permantly disabled from falling from a ladder that brings these points home .
raddog said:
Your ladder may well be perfect and brand new but I bet its a DIY spec to BS2037 class 3 rating.
Any trade use would be required to be to BSEN131 class 2 rating.
That would presume the failure of the ladder caused him to fall, surely?Any trade use would be required to be to BSEN131 class 2 rating.
Class 1-3 and EN131 are about weight loadings, not fall-off-able-ness.
The Surveyor said:
Explain? Looking at this from the OP's post, where the sub-contractor of a handyman employed to undertake domestic repairs in a private house has fallen off a ladder, where the OP hasn't been negligent how is he (or she) responsible?
Happy to be educated rather than simply told I'm wrong.
Certainly at work we are told the law means we can never avoid our responsibility and liability even if we contract someone who then sub contracts. We apparently still have a duty of care to reasonably ensure that anyone working on our site is safe. Even to the point of being expected to review policy statements etc.Happy to be educated rather than simply told I'm wrong.
I`d b fairly certain that regardless of whether your ladder was left out or not, it`s the handy mans duty to ensure the equipment he is using at the time is fit for purpose.
It would be the employing companies duty to ensure it`s workers were conforming to the relevant regs and had adequate training and certification for the job they were carrying out.
If he picked up your drill and fell on it, it would not be your fault. Same applies here.
If he asked to use your ladder, he should not have. That may affect any outcome but ultimately his safety lies with him and his employer.
It would be the employing companies duty to ensure it`s workers were conforming to the relevant regs and had adequate training and certification for the job they were carrying out.
If he picked up your drill and fell on it, it would not be your fault. Same applies here.
If he asked to use your ladder, he should not have. That may affect any outcome but ultimately his safety lies with him and his employer.
Breadvan72 said:
The Surveyor started with the confident (and wrong) assertion that the homeowner has no duty. He now appears to be accepting that the homeowner has a duty (as indeed he/she does) but arguing the toss about whether the duty has been breached. That depends on the facts, and of those we have insufficient to form a view. The fall might be the fault of the fallen bloke for carrying a load in a careless way, or it might be someone else's fault. That all depends on what actually happened.
Nope. I read the OP's post and responded accordingly, from what they posted originally and certainly from what they have later confirmed, I'm still comfortable they don't have a duty IMHO. Under the HSE and CDM Regs, the OP certainly isn't the 'Duty Holder' for the work.If your statement that I am wrong is based purely on the basis that the OP may not have told the truth, or withheld an important element of what happened, then maybe I'm just that little bit less cynical than you.
All accidents need to be recorded ,he should file an accident report with his employer or who put him to work ,as for the ladder if he chose to use it usually most workers at height are ladder trained , am l competent to carry out the task?can the job be done safely ?have I the right equipment to carry out the job ? Domestic ladders aren’t the best if he chose to use it,could he get 3 points of contact ?why not use a foldable small platform when the job was pre sited ,it only when you meet people that are permantly disabled from falling from a ladder that brings these points home .
Gary C said:
Certainly at work we are told the law means we can never avoid our responsibility and liability even if we contract someone who then sub contracts. We apparently still have a duty of care to reasonably ensure that anyone working on our site is safe. Even to the point of being expected to review policy statements etc.
Yes, correct. But the HSE applies things differently when dealing with domestic situations as they don't expect homeowners to be as knowledgeable of construction H&S requirements. That doesn't mean they can be negligent or hide known hazards from people working in their home, but that certainly isn't the case here from what the OP has said.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff