Another SOGA / Car Dealer question
Discussion
Hi everyone,
I know PH gets alot of these topics; I just want to clarify where I stand on this matter.
I bought a cheap E39 530i auto on Wednesday (5 days ago). Today it flashed up an error message and the autobox went into limp mode, locking itself into 4th gear. This means it'll need to get plugged in, have the fault codes read and then usually means it needs anything from an oil top up to a new gearbox ecu to a gearbox refurbishment - essentially, sorting it could be anywhere from £100 - £2,000.
I bought it off a dealer; he seemed to be a sole trader type deal. His company is registered on companies house, it has a website, etc with active stock so he is very much a practising car dealer. The car was sold to me as a PX to clear.
What are my current rights? Ideally I would either want him to try and sort it or refund me for the car. Is this within my rights? The car was sold with no warranty implied but I'm assuming because it's only 5 days since I bought it that there is some sort of buyers protection here given that it was purchased from a registered car dealership? The seller supplied me with a signed receipt on headed paper as well.
Eta: I understand that SOGA has been replaced by CRA. Regardless, just curious as to see what my rights are. From what I understand I can reject the car within 30 days but not sure if this is affected by the age or nature of the sale. The car is an X reg with 100,000 miles and 2 previous owners.
I know PH gets alot of these topics; I just want to clarify where I stand on this matter.
I bought a cheap E39 530i auto on Wednesday (5 days ago). Today it flashed up an error message and the autobox went into limp mode, locking itself into 4th gear. This means it'll need to get plugged in, have the fault codes read and then usually means it needs anything from an oil top up to a new gearbox ecu to a gearbox refurbishment - essentially, sorting it could be anywhere from £100 - £2,000.
I bought it off a dealer; he seemed to be a sole trader type deal. His company is registered on companies house, it has a website, etc with active stock so he is very much a practising car dealer. The car was sold to me as a PX to clear.
What are my current rights? Ideally I would either want him to try and sort it or refund me for the car. Is this within my rights? The car was sold with no warranty implied but I'm assuming because it's only 5 days since I bought it that there is some sort of buyers protection here given that it was purchased from a registered car dealership? The seller supplied me with a signed receipt on headed paper as well.
Eta: I understand that SOGA has been replaced by CRA. Regardless, just curious as to see what my rights are. From what I understand I can reject the car within 30 days but not sure if this is affected by the age or nature of the sale. The car is an X reg with 100,000 miles and 2 previous owners.
Edited by Gooly on Sunday 26th August 20:43
for a start get it fault read first.
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the...
'If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its
[b]]age and mileage[/b, or it turns out not to be what you’d been led to expect - you may have the right to reject it and get your money back.''
i would say considering the age you would expect faults to occur.
''. You should expect the car to:
be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
meet any description given to you when you were buying it (whether in the ad or in discussions prior to sale)
be fit for purpose (in this case, to get you from A to B safely).
It's important that you take into account the mileage, age and how the car is described to you.''
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/the...
'If there's a problem with a second-hand car soon after you've bought it - for example, the car develops a problem you wouldn't expect for its
[b]]age and mileage[/b, or it turns out not to be what you’d been led to expect - you may have the right to reject it and get your money back.''
i would say considering the age you would expect faults to occur.
''. You should expect the car to:
be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
meet any description given to you when you were buying it (whether in the ad or in discussions prior to sale)
be fit for purpose (in this case, to get you from A to B safely).
It's important that you take into account the mileage, age and how the car is described to you.''
Would it be unreasonable to ask the dealer to arrange for the car to be plugged in? I should add that there are a few other issues that have popped up. In my opinion it's all ABS related; the brakes lock up meaning the ABS isn't actually working, the engine sometimes doesn't rev past 5.5k which is often indicative of ABS issues too and ABS issues can also cause the gearbox fault code (due to speed sensor issues). I realised today that the ABS light doesn't come on at all, meaning it has been taken out. I haven't removed it and it's unlikely that it has stopped working in the time that I have bought it, given that the car had the ABS issues on the way home.
Given that the dealer sold me a car with the ABS light removed, would that give more grounds for repair / rejection? I'm not trying to paint the dealer in a bad light, I just want to sort this as soon as possible. Have had my fair share of sheds and always happy to take on a project but in my opinion, an autobox failure on a 100k mileage car 5 days after purchase doesnt quite count as expected / fair / reasonable, even if it is 20 years old. If it makes any difference, the dealer said in both the advert and during the viewing that the car ran well and had no engine or gearbox issues.
Given that the dealer sold me a car with the ABS light removed, would that give more grounds for repair / rejection? I'm not trying to paint the dealer in a bad light, I just want to sort this as soon as possible. Have had my fair share of sheds and always happy to take on a project but in my opinion, an autobox failure on a 100k mileage car 5 days after purchase doesnt quite count as expected / fair / reasonable, even if it is 20 years old. If it makes any difference, the dealer said in both the advert and during the viewing that the car ran well and had no engine or gearbox issues.
Gooly said:
the dealer said in both the advert and during the viewing that the car ran well and had no engine or gearbox issues.
The dealer did not know the A-cone in the gearbox was about to go pop. It would have run faultlessly before.This "part exchange to clear" obviously only cost you two or three hundred quid, so I agree a £2K bill five days later is unfortunate(!). But they typically pop at 100K to 105K miles.
But crucially, you haven't informed us of the dealer's response?
I haven't asked yet! It's a sunday evening and also I wanted to know where I stood before I rang him up. I'd prefer not to go in all guns blazing - it was a cheap car and he was pleasant to deal with.
I don't think the gearbox has gone pop - more likely that something else has triggered a limp mode (It's locked itself into 4th, which normally implies an electronic issue; generally if its mechanical, such as the a-cone or worn seals it locks into 5th instead). It definitely wasn't a £300 car, haven't seen an e39 that cheap in a long while and certainly not a 530i. I paid around a grand for it. I'm not asking for him to comission a 2 grand box rebuild - I just want to know exactly where I stand and what obligations the dealer has in this case due to the fact that A) it's only been 5 days since I bought it and B) there is potential for pre-existing issues here.
I will get it plugged in ASAP. But like I said, I just want to know the law and where I stand with regards to this. I'm not trying to milk the dealer but some sort of help or contribution would be great for me.
I don't think the gearbox has gone pop - more likely that something else has triggered a limp mode (It's locked itself into 4th, which normally implies an electronic issue; generally if its mechanical, such as the a-cone or worn seals it locks into 5th instead). It definitely wasn't a £300 car, haven't seen an e39 that cheap in a long while and certainly not a 530i. I paid around a grand for it. I'm not asking for him to comission a 2 grand box rebuild - I just want to know exactly where I stand and what obligations the dealer has in this case due to the fact that A) it's only been 5 days since I bought it and B) there is potential for pre-existing issues here.
I will get it plugged in ASAP. But like I said, I just want to know the law and where I stand with regards to this. I'm not trying to milk the dealer but some sort of help or contribution would be great for me.
Thesprucegoose said:
"...It's important that you take into account the mileage, age and how the car is described to you.''
Vaud said:
Gooly said:
The car was sold to me as a PX to clear.
FYI this means nothing in terms of your rights. It's a ~20yo car. It's been sold as a cheap, unsupported clearance.
While the dealer certainly can't wash his hands of it, that definitely tempers the reasonable expectations.
If the dealer does say "Sorry, mate, you're on your own with that"... then what? Return the car, and all the paperwork etc, then take him to court for the money. Is it worth the hassle and uncertain outcome?
TooMany2cvs said:
It does, and it doesn't.
It's a ~20yo car. It's been sold as a cheap, unsupported clearance.
While the dealer certainly can't wash his hands of it, that definitely tempers the reasonable expectations.
If the dealer does say "Sorry, mate, you're on your own with that"... then what? Return the car, and all the paperwork etc, then take him to court for the money. Is it worth the hassle and uncertain outcome?
You're right; I guess the main point of this thread was to see if I had grounds to ring him up and ask in the first place. If he says no then I'd be better off slinging it on ebay and getting £500 as spares and repairs than taking him to court. I've never bought a car off a dealer before and never bought anything which I can't fix myself before so this situation is new to me.It's a ~20yo car. It's been sold as a cheap, unsupported clearance.
While the dealer certainly can't wash his hands of it, that definitely tempers the reasonable expectations.
If the dealer does say "Sorry, mate, you're on your own with that"... then what? Return the car, and all the paperwork etc, then take him to court for the money. Is it worth the hassle and uncertain outcome?
You're almost certainly right about the ABS - the ECU for it on the pump usually starts to get broken wires and it sends random messages off about what the wheels might be doing to the engine and gearbox ECUs, which then think the wheels are doing something other than what they expect and then limp/lock-up mode.
TBF, when mine did this, it coped quite with everything in 4th, except an uphill give way... it did struggle there, but it did manage it!
Unlikely the ABS bulb has been removed as such, it's a surface mount LED, more likely there's tape over it (or the ECU is so knackered it's not lighting up at all). The normal sign of this lot going is the deadly trifecta of ABS/traction/brake warning lights all coming on together, but any one/two of 3, plus various OBD warnings are all possible.
You can send the ECU away for a fix for about £100 or so IIRC; otherwise I fixed mine myself with proper conductive glue (2 part silver epoxy, about £30 for 2 small syringes), some cocktail sticks and pins, and a deep breath.
Mine is here, the whole thread is worth reading. It was still working many months later when I sold the car on (and it's since passed the next MOT, so I guess was still OK 16 months later).
As for dealer comeback... I don't think you've got much of a case at that age/price.
TBF, when mine did this, it coped quite with everything in 4th, except an uphill give way... it did struggle there, but it did manage it!
Unlikely the ABS bulb has been removed as such, it's a surface mount LED, more likely there's tape over it (or the ECU is so knackered it's not lighting up at all). The normal sign of this lot going is the deadly trifecta of ABS/traction/brake warning lights all coming on together, but any one/two of 3, plus various OBD warnings are all possible.
You can send the ECU away for a fix for about £100 or so IIRC; otherwise I fixed mine myself with proper conductive glue (2 part silver epoxy, about £30 for 2 small syringes), some cocktail sticks and pins, and a deep breath.
Mine is here, the whole thread is worth reading. It was still working many months later when I sold the car on (and it's since passed the next MOT, so I guess was still OK 16 months later).
As for dealer comeback... I don't think you've got much of a case at that age/price.
defblade said:
You're almost certainly right about the ABS - the ECU for it on the pump usually starts to get broken wires and it sends random messages off about what the wheels might be doing to the engine and gearbox ECUs, which then think the wheels are doing something other than what they expect and then limp/lock-up mode.
TBF, when mine did this, it coped quite with everything in 4th, except an uphill give way... it did struggle there, but it did manage it!
Unlikely the ABS bulb has been removed as such, it's a surface mount LED, more likely there's tape over it (or the ECU is so knackered it's not lighting up at all). The normal sign of this lot going is the deadly trifecta of ABS/traction/brake warning lights all coming on together, but any one/two of 3, plus various OBD warnings are all possible.
You can send the ECU away for a fix for about £100 or so IIRC; otherwise I fixed mine myself with proper conductive glue (2 part silver epoxy, about £30 for 2 small syringes), some cocktail sticks and pins, and a deep breath.
Mine is here, the whole thread is worth reading. It was still working many months later when I sold the car on (and it's since passed the next MOT, so I guess was still OK 16 months later).
As for dealer comeback... I don't think you've got much of a case at that age/price.
Appreciate the advice! And yes, it did get me home to be fair - but less than ideal when stuck in London traffic or joining a fast dual carriageway from a give-way, especially in a loaded up Touring. TBF, when mine did this, it coped quite with everything in 4th, except an uphill give way... it did struggle there, but it did manage it!
Unlikely the ABS bulb has been removed as such, it's a surface mount LED, more likely there's tape over it (or the ECU is so knackered it's not lighting up at all). The normal sign of this lot going is the deadly trifecta of ABS/traction/brake warning lights all coming on together, but any one/two of 3, plus various OBD warnings are all possible.
You can send the ECU away for a fix for about £100 or so IIRC; otherwise I fixed mine myself with proper conductive glue (2 part silver epoxy, about £30 for 2 small syringes), some cocktail sticks and pins, and a deep breath.
Mine is here, the whole thread is worth reading. It was still working many months later when I sold the car on (and it's since passed the next MOT, so I guess was still OK 16 months later).
As for dealer comeback... I don't think you've got much of a case at that age/price.
As far as the dealer goes, I suppose I'll just have to ring and ask. I'm expecting him to say there is nothing he can or will do, but it's always worth an ask. I don't have INPA and I'd need to buy an windows PC to run it, along with the lead - something which will probably take at least a week to sort out so I was hoping I could at least get him to arrange a diagnostic or something, but we will see.
When a dealer has to dispose of a PX they have a few choices.
1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
As has been pointed out already, yes you have rights, enforcing those rights are a completely different conversation.
Some people seem to think that saying the magic three letters at a dealer will get them a fixed car or their money back with no resistance, but in reality if he says ‘no, I sold you a cheap old banger and told you I wouldn’t warrant it so get lost’ what are you actually going to do? Taking legal action to actually enforce your rights costs money and time and for lots of people just not worth the hassle.
That’s the gamble this dealer is taking selling such cars in such a way.
Some people seem to think that saying the magic three letters at a dealer will get them a fixed car or their money back with no resistance, but in reality if he says ‘no, I sold you a cheap old banger and told you I wouldn’t warrant it so get lost’ what are you actually going to do? Taking legal action to actually enforce your rights costs money and time and for lots of people just not worth the hassle.
That’s the gamble this dealer is taking selling such cars in such a way.
I imagine with the margin they've probably got in that car having sold it at a grand their least hassle and possibly cheapest outcome is take it back, refund you and then re-advertise it with the faults.
A 530iA touring for a grand is very definitely the bottom end of the market, especially from a trader.
A 530iA touring for a grand is very definitely the bottom end of the market, especially from a trader.
Trevor555 said:
When a dealer has to dispose of a PX they have a few choices.
1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
Maybe it's just me..... But if a dealer sells a car as P/X to clear I treat it exactly as such and go in with my eyes open and treat it like a private sale.1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
Iv had many many trade cars over the years, Mainly Fords because they were a bit too old for the main dealer to retail and then spend effort getting them to sales row standard. (Tyres, Scuffed bumper, Service or timing belt due etc...)
If it blows up on the way home it was my tough s
t. Luckily iv never had an issue more than a coil pack.It's getting harder and harder to buy them as dealers just don't want to deal with 'I know my consumer rights' bulls
t from people who were quiet happy to pay a discounted price compared to the shiny example on the front row when buying it and still expect the same level of aftercare.Edited by E36Ross on Monday 27th August 11:50
E36Ross said:
Trevor555 said:
When a dealer has to dispose of a PX they have a few choices.
1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
Maybe it's just me..... But if a dealer sells a car as P/X to clear I treat it exactly as such and go in with my eyes open and treat it like a private sale.1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
Iv had many many trade cars over the years, Mainly Fords because they were a bit too old for the main dealer to retail and then spend effort getting them to sales row standard. (Tyres, Scuffed bumper, Service or timing belt due etc...)
If it blows up on the way home it was my tough s
t. Luckily iv never had an issue more than a coil pack.It's getting harder and harder to buy them as dealers just don't want to deal with 'I know my consumer rights' bulls
t.They probably got more money for it over sending it to auction.
The OP has paid a grand for it as a good runner, 5 days later it is broken.
I'm sure the dealer in this case will just refund rather than have a punter go to small claims court.
Now for the serious bit...
I've been in the trade for over 30 years and Ill tell you that dealers selling cars like this rarely have them checked over, they just sell them, write whatever nonsense they care to on the invoice, and hope they don't come back.
Letting people drive away in unchecked cars?
It's a serious business buying and selling cars, 10 mins after selling a car the punter can be doing 80mph down a motorway, if only you could see some of the bodge ups, and split tyres, I've seen on PX cars over the years.
If a dealer isn't prepared to have the cars checked over, and put their name to it (at least 30 days comeback) the they shouldn't sell them to the public.
Trevor555 said:
E36Ross said:
Trevor555 said:
When a dealer has to dispose of a PX they have a few choices.
1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
Maybe it's just me..... But if a dealer sells a car as P/X to clear I treat it exactly as such and go in with my eyes open and treat it like a private sale.1. Give it to an auction house and wash their hands of it.
2. Sell it to another dealer and wash their hands of it.
3. Sell it to the public and take the chance it doesn't go wrong shortly afterwards.
They've opted for option three to get a bit more money for it.
As already said, writing "PX to clear" doesn't get them out of their legal obligations.
You are entitled to a refund under the 30 day rule.
I have no sympathy for the dealer, they chose option three. Some they'll win, some they'll lose.
Iv had many many trade cars over the years, Mainly Fords because they were a bit too old for the main dealer to retail and then spend effort getting them to sales row standard. (Tyres, Scuffed bumper, Service or timing belt due etc...)
If it blows up on the way home it was my tough s
t. Luckily iv never had an issue more than a coil pack.It's getting harder and harder to buy them as dealers just don't want to deal with 'I know my consumer rights' bulls
t.They probably got more money for it over sending it to auction.
The OP has paid a grand for it as a good runner, 5 days later it is broken.
I'm sure the dealer in this case will just refund rather than have a punter go to small claims court.
Now for the serious bit...
I've been in the trade for over 30 years and Ill tell you that dealers selling cars like this rarely have them checked over, they just sell them, write whatever nonsense they care to on the invoice, and hope they don't come back.
Letting people drive away in unchecked cars?
It's a serious business buying and selling cars, 10 mins after selling a car the punter can be doing 80mph down a motorway, if only you could see some of the bodge ups, and split tyres, I've seen on PX cars over the years.
If a dealer isn't prepared to have the cars checked over, and put their name to it (at least 30 days comeback) the they shouldn't sell them to the public.
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