Customer leaves car with us - and then goes AWOL
Discussion
Some advice appreciated,
In a nutshell - a customer made contact with us a few months back. He had an old XJ8 which he was looking to put back on the road and restore (for sentimental reasons). We collected the vehicle from his sisters' house (where it was parked up as non-runner). We assessed the car, and sent the customer a quote for the restoration. We spoke to him, at which point he said that it was a little more than he was anticipating and that he would come back to us. He hasn't, and after repeated attempts at calling/emailing him and his sister (as a secondary point of contact) we need to make a call on what happens with the car. Value wise, I would say that the car is worth about £200-500 (it's still a none runner and worth spares only). He hasn't paid for the storage, nor the cost of transporting the car to our location.
What would be the legalities/possible complications of the following solutions....
Dropping the car back from the original collection point. Do we need to give notice/a letter, or can we simply load it onto a truck and put it back on the drive (posting the keys through the letter box)? Would this be considered trespass as we will technically be on the property?
Putting the car up for sale as a Spares or Repair, or selling spares and disposing of shell. We do not have the V5, but we need to recoup the transport and storage costs as we have little chance of securing payment.
Selling directly to a scrap yard or Jag parts specialist (again, we do not have the V5).
We've given the owner ample opportunity to A) pay us what he owes and B) make arrangements to collect the car himself. He may well have had the best of intentions and is now ducking a situation he doesn't have the financial stomach for, or he may have had no intention of doing anything with the Jag and was getting it in the ear from his sister to shift an eyesore from her drive. Either way, we have tried to help a customer out and have been left with a car that is now an eyesore on our property (we have been forced to move it from the workshop because of space constraints).
Thoughts on the above, or any additional suggestions as to a solution?
Thanks.
In a nutshell - a customer made contact with us a few months back. He had an old XJ8 which he was looking to put back on the road and restore (for sentimental reasons). We collected the vehicle from his sisters' house (where it was parked up as non-runner). We assessed the car, and sent the customer a quote for the restoration. We spoke to him, at which point he said that it was a little more than he was anticipating and that he would come back to us. He hasn't, and after repeated attempts at calling/emailing him and his sister (as a secondary point of contact) we need to make a call on what happens with the car. Value wise, I would say that the car is worth about £200-500 (it's still a none runner and worth spares only). He hasn't paid for the storage, nor the cost of transporting the car to our location.
What would be the legalities/possible complications of the following solutions....
Dropping the car back from the original collection point. Do we need to give notice/a letter, or can we simply load it onto a truck and put it back on the drive (posting the keys through the letter box)? Would this be considered trespass as we will technically be on the property?
Putting the car up for sale as a Spares or Repair, or selling spares and disposing of shell. We do not have the V5, but we need to recoup the transport and storage costs as we have little chance of securing payment.
Selling directly to a scrap yard or Jag parts specialist (again, we do not have the V5).
We've given the owner ample opportunity to A) pay us what he owes and B) make arrangements to collect the car himself. He may well have had the best of intentions and is now ducking a situation he doesn't have the financial stomach for, or he may have had no intention of doing anything with the Jag and was getting it in the ear from his sister to shift an eyesore from her drive. Either way, we have tried to help a customer out and have been left with a car that is now an eyesore on our property (we have been forced to move it from the workshop because of space constraints).
Thoughts on the above, or any additional suggestions as to a solution?
Thanks.
I am assuming that there are no express contract terms in place between you and the customer. If you do have T&Cs, check what they say about this scanrio (and if they don’t say anything, consider getting somebody to write up a proper set that suit your needs!).
Otherwise, section 12 of the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 is where you need to be looking. Basically, if the one of the circumstances in subsection (1) can be made out, after giving the requisite notice, you will be entitled to sell the car. You would have to account for the customer for the proceeds, but you should be entitled to set of anything he owes you against what you owe him. And that might include storage fees (but that point is complex).
Word of warning though - you’re in a murky area (even aside from storage fees) but if it all goes wrong then owner’s remedy would be damages for the ‘conversion’ of the goods, which would likely be their value (but this can’t be guaranteed)..
Otherwise, section 12 of the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 is where you need to be looking. Basically, if the one of the circumstances in subsection (1) can be made out, after giving the requisite notice, you will be entitled to sell the car. You would have to account for the customer for the proceeds, but you should be entitled to set of anything he owes you against what you owe him. And that might include storage fees (but that point is complex).
Word of warning though - you’re in a murky area (even aside from storage fees) but if it all goes wrong then owner’s remedy would be damages for the ‘conversion’ of the goods, which would likely be their value (but this can’t be guaranteed)..
Thanks for the replies,
There is no contract between us and the owner. 99/100 our goodwill serves us well in terms of business in this type of scenario, but this one has been the 1/100 (and a learning curve). Appreciate that we are going to have to suck up the storage costs as we said that this would be incorporated into the cost of restoration. I doubt we will be able to claw back the transportation either.
The sister actually called us back yesterday to say that she had received our message. She has been trying to track down the brother (owner of the Jag too) , but he has been overseas and out of contact (apparently). We have advised that we will be returning the Jag to her next week. Sensed she was paying us lip service, but hopefully the prospect of a scrap XJ being parked back on her drive will prompt her to do something.
Hopefully, the sister will simply accept the car back with no issues....
There is no contract between us and the owner. 99/100 our goodwill serves us well in terms of business in this type of scenario, but this one has been the 1/100 (and a learning curve). Appreciate that we are going to have to suck up the storage costs as we said that this would be incorporated into the cost of restoration. I doubt we will be able to claw back the transportation either.
The sister actually called us back yesterday to say that she had received our message. She has been trying to track down the brother (owner of the Jag too) , but he has been overseas and out of contact (apparently). We have advised that we will be returning the Jag to her next week. Sensed she was paying us lip service, but hopefully the prospect of a scrap XJ being parked back on her drive will prompt her to do something.
Hopefully, the sister will simply accept the car back with no issues....
Bailment law and it is a bit tricky and worth legal advice if you decide to sell. you should also take care in looking after the car. Irving v Keen [1995]
Storage charges are generally not recoverable.
You might be better returning it to the sister, all with proper communication, but i'm not sure of law issue here.
you also might want to get terms and conditions set up for future deals so customers are clearer.
inal
Storage charges are generally not recoverable.
You might be better returning it to the sister, all with proper communication, but i'm not sure of law issue here.
you also might want to get terms and conditions set up for future deals so customers are clearer.
inal
Edited by Thesprucegoose on Sunday 30th September 20:25
Breadvan72 said:
B.J.W said:
...
There is no contract between us and the owner. ..
Yes there is. It is a popular myth that a contract is a piece of paper. There is no contract between us and the owner. ..
As noted above, section 12 of the Torts (Interference With Goods) Act 1977 answers your question.
Then send the moving bill, but don't waste too much time as you could be more productive with a another client.
B.J.W said:
...
What would be the legalities/possible complications of the following solutions....
[1] Dropping the car back from the original collection point. Do we need to give notice/a letter, or can we simply load it onto a truck and put it back on the drive (posting the keys through the letter box)? Would this be considered trespass as we will technically be on the property?
[2] Putting the car up for sale as a Spares or Repair, or selling spares and disposing of shell. We do not have the V5, but we need to recoup the transport and storage costs as we have little chance of securing payment.
[3] Selling directly to a scrap yard or Jag parts specialist (again, we do not have the V5).
...
(numbers added)What would be the legalities/possible complications of the following solutions....
[1] Dropping the car back from the original collection point. Do we need to give notice/a letter, or can we simply load it onto a truck and put it back on the drive (posting the keys through the letter box)? Would this be considered trespass as we will technically be on the property?
[2] Putting the car up for sale as a Spares or Repair, or selling spares and disposing of shell. We do not have the V5, but we need to recoup the transport and storage costs as we have little chance of securing payment.
[3] Selling directly to a scrap yard or Jag parts specialist (again, we do not have the V5).
...
Do not do [1]. You are what is known as bailee of the car and have to look after it while you are bailee.
[2] and [3] - do either but after following the procedure in the 1977 Act. V5 irrelevant (it is not a title document).
It astounds me that there are people in the world like this.
The 'customer' is either just totally insensitive to 'proper' behaviour, totallly clueless, or just goes through life foisting their problems on someone else. He's essentially fly-tipped it on you OP!
IANAL and I know BV72 is (always enjoy your posts) but if it were me I'd just dump it back with the 'customer' after no response within a reasonable period.
'Bailee' comments noted, my view would be 'I'd like to see them try'.
In further PH standards slippage, nobody has mentioned hammering frozen sausages into (pictures of) his sister on the lawn!
The 'customer' is either just totally insensitive to 'proper' behaviour, totallly clueless, or just goes through life foisting their problems on someone else. He's essentially fly-tipped it on you OP!
IANAL and I know BV72 is (always enjoy your posts) but if it were me I'd just dump it back with the 'customer' after no response within a reasonable period.
'Bailee' comments noted, my view would be 'I'd like to see them try'.
In further PH standards slippage, nobody has mentioned hammering frozen sausages into (pictures of) his sister on the lawn!
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Tuesday 2nd October 14:08
PurpleTurtle said:
It astounds me that there are people in the world like this.
The 'customer' is either just totally insensitive to 'proper' behaviour, totallly clueless, or just goes through life foisting their problems on someone else. He's essentially fly-tipped it on you OP!
IANAL and I know BV72 is (always enjoy your posts) but if it were me I'd just dump it back with the 'customer' after no response within a reasonable period.
'Bailee' comments noted, my view would be 'I'd like to see them try'.
In further PH standards slippage, nobody has mentioned hammering frozen sausages into (pictures of) his sister on the lawn!
We are 'proper', and as mentioned, we are by no means a charity but have always taken the view of treat someone as you would expect to be treated.... we will be contacting the sister again today/tomorrow. She said she needed a little time to find the brother last Friday. A few days grace will make no real difference in the grand scheme of things. Equally, it's not the sisters' fault either, but she is aware that the Jag will be heading back to her soon. The 'customer' is either just totally insensitive to 'proper' behaviour, totallly clueless, or just goes through life foisting their problems on someone else. He's essentially fly-tipped it on you OP!
IANAL and I know BV72 is (always enjoy your posts) but if it were me I'd just dump it back with the 'customer' after no response within a reasonable period.
'Bailee' comments noted, my view would be 'I'd like to see them try'.
In further PH standards slippage, nobody has mentioned hammering frozen sausages into (pictures of) his sister on the lawn!
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Tuesday 2nd October 14:08
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