Private Ambulance events - blue lights usage
Discussion
I help organise a largish sporting event for my local running club, and as part of this we have to have medical cover. We hire a local company who supplies four vehicles (Two 4x4s, an ex-NHS ambulance, a motorbike, plus two guys on bicycles) plus relevant staff.
During the event the motorbike was called out to assist a competitor who had what turned out to be a minor medical event. The guy sped off to the emergency with a blue light flashing, occasional use of a siren and definitely over the 30mph speed limit.
So two questions:
1) Is he allowed to use lights/siren? As far as I am aware he is just a private individual with some medical training.
2) If he isn't allowed, is there any come-back on us as a club if he has an accident/incident while he is contracted to work on an event for us?
During the event the motorbike was called out to assist a competitor who had what turned out to be a minor medical event. The guy sped off to the emergency with a blue light flashing, occasional use of a siren and definitely over the 30mph speed limit.
So two questions:
1) Is he allowed to use lights/siren? As far as I am aware he is just a private individual with some medical training.
2) If he isn't allowed, is there any come-back on us as a club if he has an accident/incident while he is contracted to work on an event for us?
Only private ambulance companies authorised by an NHS Trust are allowed to use warning equipment. So the company you contract may be authorised but it would be worth checking to make sure.
This is why you will see Red Cross, SJA barreling around on blue lights as they are sub contracted and authorised by the ambulance trust to carry out NHS roles in support of the ambulance trust
This is why you will see Red Cross, SJA barreling around on blue lights as they are sub contracted and authorised by the ambulance trust to carry out NHS roles in support of the ambulance trust
pavarotti1980 said:
Only private ambulance companies authorised by an NHS Trust are allowed to use warning equipment. So the company you contract may be authorised but it would be worth checking to make sure.
Or you can just get on with life and not worry about it, if they decide to use blues when not allowed to do so then it's their problem not the OPsNickyboy said:
Or you can just get on with life and not worry about it, if they decide to use blues when not allowed to do so then it's their problem not the OPs
This is true if I was worried about it instead of giving the OP an answer to his questionYou can also not reply to threads with such pointless opinions as yours
pavarotti1980 said:
This is true if I was worried about it instead of giving the OP an answer to his question
You can also not reply to threads with such pointless opinions as yours
It's not a pointless opinion so wind your neck in, unless the OP has specifically asked for them to use blues etc then he has nothing to worry about, they're there to provide medical coverage that's all. You can also not reply to threads with such pointless opinions as yours
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors. The qualifications of the individual staff depends on the event and circumstances, for example British Eventing (horse trials for those not familiar) have very tight rules about the minimum levels of medical provision at BE affiliated events which are dependent on the difficulty of the course and the standard of the riders. Going back to driving, most of the doctors don't have the driving qualifications but the paramedics and the techs do. The medical cover providers are also CQC registered and inspected regularly (along with hospitals, GP surgeries, care homes etc) and these qualifications are checked by them too. As long as the company providing the cover is CQC registered, you don't have much to worry about.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
QuickQuack said:
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Incorrect.DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Nothing to do with driver training.
Everything to do with the use of the vehicle.
Speed limit exemptions here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...
Blue light use here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Siren use comes under the Construction and Use Regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regul...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Someone has been feeding you duff info, Doctor.
Red 4 said:
QuickQuack said:
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Incorrect.DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Nothing to do with driver training.
Everything to do with the use of the vehicle.
Speed limit exemptions here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...
Blue light use here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Siren use comes under the Construction and Use Regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regul...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Someone has been feeding you duff info, Doctor.
I can drive a vehicle fitted with blues, indeed I have, but I can't turn them on because I don't have the training; it's as simple as that. That's why I said it's about the driver and not the vehicle as to whether the lights can be switched on for a blue light transfer to hospital.
QuickQuack said:
Red 4 said:
QuickQuack said:
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Incorrect.DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Nothing to do with driver training.
Everything to do with the use of the vehicle.
Speed limit exemptions here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...
Blue light use here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Siren use comes under the Construction and Use Regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regul...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Someone has been feeding you duff info, Doctor.
I can drive a vehicle fitted with blues, indeed I have, but I can't turn them on because I don't have the training; it's as simple as that. That's why I said it's about the driver and not the vehicle as to whether the lights can be switched on for a blue light transfer to hospital.
Reg 19 Road Safety Act 2006 was to amend Sec 87 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 but it hasn't been enacted yet. When it finally does then only people who have completed an approved course will be able to claim the speed exemption (it doesn't apply to other exemptions) in law.
Although exemptions in law don't require any training yet, most services tend to self Police the issue utilising their own discipline proceedings. Other things to consider though, are considerations such as insurance cover.
If the insurance supplier would never offer cover for that use where suitable training hadn't been given & you then decide to use the vehicle outside of the permitted use outlined by your employer etc, then they may argue you shouldn't have cover or at least seek costs from you personally for any losses. In addition you may also find yourself of interest to the authorities & under scrutiny for offences such as Sec 2/3 RTA 1988.
If you actually read the legislation it actually refers to speed limits. So you can use blue lights without "training" but would not be exempt from speed limits. The other thing of course is that if you were to have an accident under "blues" one of the first questioned you would be asked is what training you have had.
As I said earlier a minefield.
As I said earlier a minefield.
Drumroll said:
If you actually read the legislation it actually refers to speed limits. So you can use blue lights without "training" but would not be exempt from speed limits. The other thing of course is that if you were to have an accident under "blues" one of the first questioned you would be asked is what training you have had.
As I said earlier a minefield.
Sec 87 Road Traffic Regulation Act (Speed limit exemptions) doesn't require any training in order to avail yourself of exemptions, YET as i say. As I said earlier a minefield.
It will change when Reg 19 of Road Safety Act is enacted which will then amend The Road Traffic Regulation Act by inserting such a requirement for speed exemptions.
QuickQuack said:
Red 4 said:
QuickQuack said:
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Incorrect.DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Nothing to do with driver training.
Everything to do with the use of the vehicle.
Speed limit exemptions here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...
Blue light use here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Siren use comes under the Construction and Use Regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regul...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Someone has been feeding you duff info, Doctor.
I can drive a vehicle fitted with blues, indeed I have, but I can't turn them on because I don't have the training; it's as simple as that. That's why I said it's about the driver and not the vehicle as to whether the lights can be switched on for a blue light transfer to hospital.
Like I said - it's everything to do with the use of the vehicle and has nothing to do with driver training. That applies to speed exemptions and the fitting (and use) of emergency equipment.
As von says, they've been banging on about changing the law to incorporate a requirement for driver training for using exemptions in relation to exceeding the speed limit - but it hasn't happened.
It was first suggested in 2006 but keeps being sidelined.
Sorry, doc. You're wrong (again).
Seems to a prolific in the southwest of england as last check only one 3rd party company Bristol Ambulance Service are the only private ambulance service authorised by SWAS NHS to carry out blue light runs on their behalf. (Aside from the odd SJA/RED CROSS).
There was a case of a guy in minehead caught speeding in a private ambulance who appeared to have no proof of a medical emergency and then avon and somerset police vowed to clamp down but I see plenty being driven around and at small events. He got fined £300 and 7 points.
https://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/taunt...blues_and_twosillegally/
I have to say I never seen them on blue light but there is one firm in particular who's drivers carry speed around taunton in the 30 limits and arent driven very well.
I was on the motorway on Saturday near Exeter and was passed by two non-police unmarked vehicles. One was a black Evoque with roof bars and cycle carriers that had covert blues all over it front, wing mirrors, and rear blues 15 plate old boy in it I assumed was ambulance as there had been an accident on the other side.
The other thing is the ambulance and fire unmarked cars around my area have a roof mounted light bar made in black steel with 8 led heads, I am not sure if its to help identify them as non-police unmarked as they all have convert lights as well. They always seem to a blue light on the roof.
Then there was an 11plate vw toureg black again seemed to be with convert blues again not kitted as per the unmarked fire vehicles I know of and both cars had dealer stickers which the police/ambulance/fire around my area don't have.
Heres a SWAS newer officers car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ga132/37149705856/
There was a case of a guy in minehead caught speeding in a private ambulance who appeared to have no proof of a medical emergency and then avon and somerset police vowed to clamp down but I see plenty being driven around and at small events. He got fined £300 and 7 points.
https://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/taunt...blues_and_twosillegally/
I have to say I never seen them on blue light but there is one firm in particular who's drivers carry speed around taunton in the 30 limits and arent driven very well.
I was on the motorway on Saturday near Exeter and was passed by two non-police unmarked vehicles. One was a black Evoque with roof bars and cycle carriers that had covert blues all over it front, wing mirrors, and rear blues 15 plate old boy in it I assumed was ambulance as there had been an accident on the other side.
The other thing is the ambulance and fire unmarked cars around my area have a roof mounted light bar made in black steel with 8 led heads, I am not sure if its to help identify them as non-police unmarked as they all have convert lights as well. They always seem to a blue light on the roof.
Then there was an 11plate vw toureg black again seemed to be with convert blues again not kitted as per the unmarked fire vehicles I know of and both cars had dealer stickers which the police/ambulance/fire around my area don't have.
Heres a SWAS newer officers car
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ga132/37149705856/
Edited by surveyor_101 on Tuesday 9th October 13:34
Red 4 said:
QuickQuack said:
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Incorrect.DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Nothing to do with driver training.
Everything to do with the use of the vehicle.
Speed limit exemptions here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...
Blue light use here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Siren use comes under the Construction and Use Regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regul...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Someone has been feeding you duff info, Doctor.
For example Airwave have mobile base stations for when one goes down/coverage issues.
They went to the trouble of having one or more of the vehicles kitted out and drivers trained.
Only the trained drivers are allowed to use the lights/sirens, if someone trained wasn't available they had to get a Police escort (if circumstances required it)
Russ T Bolt said:
Red 4 said:
QuickQuack said:
As said, it's not about the vehicle, it's about the driver. The medical cover at such an event is provided by professional trained staff; they're not just someone off the the street with a first aid certificate. They will be state registered paramedics, ambulance technicians, or in some cases doctors.
DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Incorrect.DOI: I am a doctor and used to be involved with medical cover at BE/horse trials.
Nothing to do with driver training.
Everything to do with the use of the vehicle.
Speed limit exemptions here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...
Blue light use here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Siren use comes under the Construction and Use Regulations:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regul...
Again, it's about the use of the vehicle.
Someone has been feeding you duff info, Doctor.
For example Airwave have mobile base stations for when one goes down/coverage issues.
They went to the trouble of having one or more of the vehicles kitted out and drivers trained.
Only the trained drivers are allowed to use the lights/sirens, if someone trained wasn't available they had to get a Police escort (if circumstances required it)
A sensible policy but not a requirement for the exemption itself.
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