Box Junction Dilemma
Discussion
hi pistonians,
was planning to drive down to croydon soon and during the planning process, i found out this place has box junctions right centre and left
so i was wondering if i were to enter a busy box junction with the intention to turn right and the car thats in front of me is also turning right, am i allowed to drive and wait behind me in the box junction? the highway code says this is allowed assuming the exit is clear. but this is where i am confused..
can you go wait behind the other car in the box junction if the exit has stationary traffic on it with room for only one car?
or suppose say there is room for two cars at the time i entered and then car in front of me goes ahead n takes one space and another oncoming vehicle takes turn into my desired exit and the only remaining space is now gone.. what would happen if i caught the eye of cops/ camera at this very point? they would defo be assuming i broke the law here?
many thanks all
was planning to drive down to croydon soon and during the planning process, i found out this place has box junctions right centre and left
so i was wondering if i were to enter a busy box junction with the intention to turn right and the car thats in front of me is also turning right, am i allowed to drive and wait behind me in the box junction? the highway code says this is allowed assuming the exit is clear. but this is where i am confused..
can you go wait behind the other car in the box junction if the exit has stationary traffic on it with room for only one car?
or suppose say there is room for two cars at the time i entered and then car in front of me goes ahead n takes one space and another oncoming vehicle takes turn into my desired exit and the only remaining space is now gone.. what would happen if i caught the eye of cops/ camera at this very point? they would defo be assuming i broke the law here?
many thanks all
The law:
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 said:
Schedule 9, Part 7, Section 11
(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Full schedule(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
SS2. said:
The law:
thank you..so in other words you may go right ahead and wait behind the car thats also turning right provided the exit is clear.. but my question is what if there is already existing stationary moving traffic on the road you desire to take and there is room for only one more to car to enter that road without touching the box?Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 said:
Schedule 9, Part 7, Section 11
(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Full schedule(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
jerrin91 said:
thank you..so in other words you may go right ahead and wait behind the car thats also turning right provided the exit is clear.. but my question is what if there is already existing stationary moving traffic on the road you desire to take and there is room for only one more to car to enter that road without touching the box?
No, you need to go and read your highway code again and also what is quoted from the statute. For the purposes of turning right, the exit does not have to be clear.Bert
BertBert said:
No, you need to go and read your highway code again and also what is quoted from the statute. For the purposes of turning right, the exit does not have to be clear.
Bert
the highway code says:Bert
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. [/b]You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.[/b] However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
it clearly says you must not enter if your exit is clear.. not sure though if this only applies if you going straight ahead? i have always maintained staying behind the box if my exit regardless of the direction was blocked... just afraid to be caught sitting ducks by the camera
1. You must not enter if you would have to stop due to stationary traffic at your exit, i.e. if only one space on the exit to the right then only one vehicle may enter the junction.
2. You may stop in the box if oncoming traffic or right turning traffic prevents you from completing your manoeuvre.
2. You may stop in the box if oncoming traffic or right turning traffic prevents you from completing your manoeuvre.
J2daG1990 said:
You are allowed to be stationary in a box junction if you are turning right.
The exit does not need to be clear.
thank you... that pretty much answers both my questions then... but i remeber watching a CCTV footage of a london cabbie waiting in the box to right onto a road full of stationary vehicles and it was picked up by camera.. The exit does not need to be clear.
speedking31 said:
1. You must not enter if you would have to stop due to stationary traffic at your exit, i.e. if only one space on the exit to the right then only one vehicle may enter the junction.
2. You may stop in the box if oncoming traffic or right turning traffic prevents you from completing your manoeuvre.
Try reading the post by SS2 again. The legislation currently contains no such stipulation. 2. You may stop in the box if oncoming traffic or right turning traffic prevents you from completing your manoeuvre.
jerrin91 said:
J2daG1990 said:
You are allowed to be stationary in a box junction if you are turning right.
The exit does not need to be clear.
thank you... that pretty much answers both my questions then... but i remeber watching a CCTV footage of a london cabbie waiting in the box to right onto a road full of stationary vehicles and it was picked up by camera.. The exit does not need to be clear.
regs said:
(2) Subject to sub-paragraph (4) the marking when placed as a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(c) of the definition of that expression conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
You can only enter and stop if turning right and your ability to do so is prohibited by on-coming vehicles, or a vehicle in-front trying to do the same. If the exit (on the right) is blocked by stationary vehicles, you cannot enter the box. The taxi driver was in the wrong.(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
But ...
legislation said:
11 (3) (b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
My bold. As soon as preceding right turners and oncomers have cleared then you have to complete your turn. If the exit only had one space when you entered behind another right turner then you have entered and had to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles (and that could be foreseen when you entered).V8LM said:
If the exit (on the right) is blocked by stationary vehicles, you cannot enter the box. The taxi driver was in the wrong.
this goes against what J2daG1990 and BertBert wrote earlier.If the approach you mentioned in your response is the right one how would go about suppose say there is room for two cars in the right turn exit at the time i entered and then car in front of me take the right turn exit n takes one space and another oncoming vehicle takes also turns into my desired exit and the only remaining space is now gone.. what would happen if i caught the eye of cops/ camera at this very point? they would defo be assuming i broke the law here?
The advice is consistent. If the exit to the right is blocked then you mustn't enter the box.
If there is space in the exit to the right then you may enter the box. If that space is subsequently filled by an oncomer, then you have not committed an offence. Proving so is a different matter!
If there is space in the exit to the right then you may enter the box. If that space is subsequently filled by an oncomer, then you have not committed an offence. Proving so is a different matter!
V8LM said:
You can only enter and stop if turning right and your ability to do so is prohibited by on-coming vehicles, or a vehicle in-front trying to do the same. If the exit (on the right) is blocked by stationary vehicles, you cannot enter the box.
Wrong: as I mentioned in response to a previous poster who said the very same thing.I challenge you to provide a link to the legislation which contains any such stipulation.
V8LM said:
The taxi driver was in the wrong.
No, he wasn't. speedking31 said:
The advice is consistent. If the exit to the right is blocked then you mustn't enter the box.
Consistency is one thing. Acccuracy is another. You're the third person to make this incorrect assertion.speedking31 said:
If there is space in the exit to the right then you may enter the box. If that space is subsequently filled by an oncomer, then you have not committed an offence.
Quite, but you're making a distinction which is not even relevant anyway. speedking31 said:
Proving so is a different matter!
Indeed. If the LA issued a PCN and refused to back down the matter would need to be decided by a London Tribunals/TPT adjudicator.edited to remove formatting errors
Edited by Red Devil on Wednesday 14th November 12:17
Sorry @Red Devil, you'll have to explain.
If the exit to the right is blocked, but there is oncoming traffic then you can enter the box and wait legitimately. However, as soon as the oncoming traffic clears, then if the exit is still blocked, and if you are stationary, then you have committed an offence.
Therefore the advice must be not to enter the box if the right turn is blocked.
If the exit to the right is blocked, but there is oncoming traffic then you can enter the box and wait legitimately. However, as soon as the oncoming traffic clears, then if the exit is still blocked, and if you are stationary, then you have committed an offence.
Therefore the advice must be not to enter the box if the right turn is blocked.
jerrin91 said:
x type said:
just be careful of yellow box cameras
there was something on watchdog or similar program recently about drivers being caught out
This!!!there was something on watchdog or similar program recently about drivers being caught out
I heard Croydon is a minefield of traffic cameras n box junctions
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