Overtaking at a red light/junction

[tom667]

What's the law / thought on this?

There's a number of roads near me with right turn lanes at traffic lights. It's rare to see turning traffic here so they make for good places to overtake a HGV or dawdler in relative safety if arriving at a red light. With a clear view down the road past the junction, and from a standing start, it is only necessary to accelerate briskly to the speed limit and pull in before the junction ends to complete the overtake. Obviously, such an overtake should only be attempted if there is no other vehicle turning right opposite, and the junction is clear.

An example: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7343715,-1.75940...

using the right-turn lane to complete the overtake, indicating left white waiting, to advise other traffic of my intention to overtake.

Highway Code Rule 167 would appear to rule this out. It states DO NOT overtake "approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road".

However I have always interpreted this portion of the rule to advise caution or forbid overtaking near points where major roads join onto the carriageway because turning road users may not check both lanes when turning left. The key portion of this sentence is "a road junction on either side of the road"; a set of traffic lights is a road junction on this road (and NOT on either side). However, I will admit this interpretation may be somewhat strenuous!

Indeed, there are overtaking opportunities on roads that are designed in to additional lanes, e.g.: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5650982,-1.3248547...

which provides an overtaking opportunity through the junction, merging after the junction ends, which could be a violation of rule 167.

Thoughts?

Edited by tom667 on Tuesday 5th February 21:45

Edited by tom667 on Tuesday 5th February 21:46

[Haltamer]

I can see why you would consider the option, however, doing so from a designated right turn lane (indication or no) is dubious; I'm not sure on the legal standing of painted arrows at junctions (TSO Manual here I come) but it seems rather dubious - And it certainly isn't cricket - I'll avoid making any remarks about the propensity of drivers of certain German marques to make such manuevers though

As for HGVs - Genuinely a bad plan.
In an LHD HGV, you are completely out of sight; in best case, an RHD HGV You'll only be seen if the driver looks for you; Another hazard to consider in this instace, what if they've taken the straight on lane to make their right turn to allow space for their trailer to clear any central reservations etc? You'd be meat in a trailer / cab sandwich

[Graveworm]

tom667 said:

What's the law / thought on this?

There's a number of roads near me with right turn lanes at traffic lights. It's rare to see turning traffic here so they make for good places to overtake a HGV or dawdler in relative safety if arriving at a red light. With a clear view down the road past the junction, and from a standing start, it is only necessary to accelerate briskly to the speed limit and pull in before the junction ends to complete the overtake. Obviously, such an overtake should only be attempted if there is no other vehicle turning right opposite, and the junction is clear.

An example: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7343715,-1.75940...

using the right-turn lane to complete the overtake, indicating left white waiting, to advise other traffic of my intention to overtake.

Highway Code Rule 167 would appear to rule this out. It states DO NOT overtake "approaching or at a road junction on either side of the road".

However I have always interpreted this portion of the rule to advise caution or forbid overtaking near points where major roads join onto the carriageway because turning road users may not check both lanes when turning left. The key portion of this sentence is "a road junction on either side of the road"; a set of traffic lights is a road junction on this road (and NOT on either side). However, I will admit this interpretation may be somewhat strenuous!

Indeed, there are overtaking opportunities on roads that are designed in to additional lanes, e.g.: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5650982,-1.3248547...

which provides an overtaking opportunity through the junction, merging after the junction ends, which could be a violation of rule 167.

Thoughts?

It's not so much the principle for me it's the specifics and especially how early I would need to commit, if I was planning on waiting a light phase. From the view, I get thrown up there, it has an advance cycle lane so a bicycle could drop in and ruin your plan, along with solos at pretty much any junction.
I would also be asking myself is it possible the NS indicator has a potential to confuse? If I were so sure I could get it done without encroaching then I am not sure whose benefit the signal could be for.
If it's in free flowing traffic and all the variables are boxed off that's easy enough to make a decision, but waiting at a red light can introduce something that couldn't really be planned for e.g. another driver arriving to turn right, or even worse with the same idea at the other side along with the road narrowing up ahead causing slower traffic. HGVs should not present a practical issue in themselves (other than swinging out) but, for anything other than that or similar, if the "dawdler" becomes awkward you are in a 0-30 race in the space of a junction. Of course, if your contingency is to turn right and suck it up, then no harm no foul.

Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 5th February 22:24

[popeyewhite]

I think if a policecar spots you you may get in trouble. They're not really overtaking lanes, after all, and I would never, ever consider overtaking like that myself. Nope. Never. Ever. At all.

[NGee]

tom667 said:

Thoughts?

I think you're a prick for driving like that.
I think you're a bigger prick for admitting it on a national forum
I think you're an even bigger prick for trying to get approval on here for your dangerous driving.

I'm not quite sure what you link is meant to show, except for the fact that which ever way you are travelling, if you are in the right hand lane and don't turn right, you will just end up facing another car head on.

[speedking31]

Nowhere on the linked example does it indicate that it's a right turn lane. I wouldn't unless tractor or similar on the left. I would have to turn right out of embarrassment if someone appeared in the opposite direction signalling to turn right.

[jamei303]

In the first example there is nothing to indicate that the right lane isn’t a straight-ahead lane and the left lane a left turn lane. If I was approaching and vehicles were signalling left for example, I’d absolutely pass them in the right.

I’m pretty sure if there were painted right turn arrows you could get done for DWDC, much as you would for following a right turn lane and going all the way around a roundabout in order to skip a queue and turn left.

Edited by jamei303 on Wednesday 6th February 07:24

[theboss]

jamei303 said:

In the first example there is nothing to indicate that the right lane isn’t a straight-ahead lane and the left lane a left turn lane. If I was approaching and vehicles were signalling left for example, I’d absolutely pass them in the right.

I’m pretty if there were painted right turn arrows you could get done for DWDC, much as you would for following a right turn lane and going all the way around a roundabout in order to skip a queue and turn left.

The latter is news to me - why would you get done for DWDC for doing 270 degrees around a roundabout?

I would do this without hesitation if the bottleneck was entry to the roundabout rather than queueing traffic in the desired exit, as is often the case.

[Riley Blue]

theboss said:

jamei303 said:

In the first example there is nothing to indicate that the right lane isn’t a straight-ahead lane and the left lane a left turn lane. If I was approaching and vehicles were signalling left for example, I’d absolutely pass them in the right.

I’m pretty if there were painted right turn arrows you could get done for DWDC, much as you would for following a right turn lane and going all the way around a roundabout in order to skip a queue and turn left.

The latter is news to me - why would you get done for DWDC for doing 270 degrees around a roundabout?

Provided you signalled your intention I'd say it's a perfectly acceptable manoeuvre, same as doing a U-turn at a roundabout - you're just going a bit further 'right'.

[jamei303]

Riley Blue said:

Provided you signalled your intention I'd say it's a perfectly acceptable manoeuvre, same as doing a U-turn at a roundabout - you're just going a bit further 'right'.

A U turn is fine, but if there’s a queue of traffic in the left turn lane and you jump the queue by going around the roundabout thats well within the purview of section 3 of the rta.



This is what the CPS say:

This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness in addition to some other inconvenience to road users. The following examples are typical of actions likely to be regarded as inconsiderate driving:

flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way;
misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause;
driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians;
driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed;
driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers.

[twister]

jamei303 said:

In the first example there is nothing to indicate that the right lane isn’t a straight-ahead lane and the left lane a left turn lane. If I was approaching and vehicles were signalling left for example, I’d absolutely pass them in the right.

I’m pretty if there were painted right turn arrows you could get done for DWDC, much as you would for following a right turn lane and going all the way around a roundabout in order to skip a queue and turn left.

In the most recent Street view imagery, it appears the junction had been given a recent application of shellgrip, with only the lane seperator markings having then been repainted.

The historical imagery available for that location shows that, prior to being hidden by the shellgrip, arrows were present, and in the current imagery you can still make out the tail end of the one further back from the junction where the right hand lane starts.

[davek_964]

popeyewhite said:

I think if a policecar spots you you may get in trouble. They're not really overtaking lanes, after all, and I would never, ever consider overtaking like that myself. Nope. Never. Ever. At all.

A year or so back, my mate told me he got pulled for doing exactly what the OP has suggested. I think he just got a slapped wrist rather than actually being booked, but I might be wrong.

[Tommo Two]

I do this at certain junctions where I believe it is safe to do so and road marking dependant. Usually you are alongside someone who has taken the red light as an opportunity to check social media! So when the light turns orange, Im off and moving into the lane i want before they have finished putting their phone away.

Unfortunately there was an unmarked traffic unit in the left hand lane about 3 cars back who pulled me after doing it a 2 consecutive traffic lights.

He was going to give me a ticket for it, but i politely (must pass the attitue test) pointed out it was technically legal, after the lights the lanes are side by side for a few car lengths before the right hand lane splits right, but they are split by a dashed line so its legal to cross as long as i give way.

True he admitted, 'so i'll write driving without due care and attention on your ticket'. Again I politely disagreed with this, I said because its an unusual manoeuvre and most people wont be expecting it, I actually had to take more car and pay more attention to the other road users.

He put his ticket book away, checked my car over, lectured me about how 'unusual' manoeuvres can cause accidents. And finished with you managed to save 20 seconds skipping across from the wrong lane, and you've been stood here chatting to me for 5 mins, so in hindsight you shouldn't have done it because you've wasted 4.40 seconds. I agreed he was absolutely correct and that i shouldn't and wont do it again!

Junctions were coming out of Oxford on the Watlington road away from the BMW plant past Lidl etc with Blackbird Leys on my right, if you wanna google map or know the junctions.

[tom667]

Interesting thoughts all...

I have seen many other drivers do this procedure and I would only ever do it if I could clearly see beyond the junction. Because it is a standing start you can often clear the junction before the other driver has even begun to set off if you pay attention to the opposite phase, so it allows an overtake when normally there would be insufficient space and speed differential.

If a right-turner arrived then I would just turn right and take the longer journey, but as said this junction is usually free from such traffic so this maneuver is potentially possible. Whether it is legal is the question I guess. I feel it is sufficiently safe with good visibility and with a left-turn indicator to indicate intention. It seems like police may take a dim view to it.

It does often seem you can beat people at the lights because they're paying little attention. It's equally frustrating to be stuck behind someone and miss the next phase of lights because they aren't paying enough attention or dawdle along to the next set of lights in a junction at a snail's pace. But I don't want to drive like a prick or cause an accident, so I won't be doing this any time soon.

[2Btoo]

jamei303 said:

This is what the CPS say:

This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness in addition to some other inconvenience to road users. The following examples are typical of actions likely to be regarded as inconsiderate driving:

flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way;
misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause;
driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians;
driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed;
driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers.

Wowsers. I see many (most) of those on a pretty much daily basis 'round here.

[eltawater]

jamei303 said:

Riley Blue said:

Provided you signalled your intention I'd say it's a perfectly acceptable manoeuvre, same as doing a U-turn at a roundabout - you're just going a bit further 'right'.

A U turn is fine, but if there’s a queue of traffic in the left turn lane and you jump the queue by going around the roundabout thats well within the purview of section 3 of the rta.



This is what the CPS say:

This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness in addition to some other inconvenience to road users. The following examples are typical of actions likely to be regarded as inconsiderate driving:

flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way;
misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause;
driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians;
driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed;
driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers.

I call BS on that as you're using the roundabout as a roundabout.

[jamei303]

eltawater said:

I call BS on that as you're using the roundabout as a roundabout.

You're using the right-turn approach lane to turn left.

[Mandalore]

twister said:

jamei303 said:

In the first example there is nothing to indicate that the right lane isn’t a straight-ahead lane and the left lane a left turn lane. If I was approaching and vehicles were signalling left for example, I’d absolutely pass them in the right.

I’m pretty if there were painted right turn arrows you could get done for DWDC, much as you would for following a right turn lane and going all the way around a roundabout in order to skip a queue and turn left.

In the most recent Street view imagery, it appears the junction had been given a recent application of shellgrip, with only the lane seperator markings having then been repainted.

The historical imagery available for that location shows that, prior to being hidden by the shellgrip, arrows were present, and in the current imagery you can still make out the tail end of the one further back from the junction where the right hand lane starts.

I am also wondering if the image in the OP, just happened to be taken before lines were replaced. Anyone local would obviously know its a right turn,

[Elysium]

jamei303 said:

Riley Blue said:

Provided you signalled your intention I'd say it's a perfectly acceptable manoeuvre, same as doing a U-turn at a roundabout - you're just going a bit further 'right'.

A U turn is fine, but if there’s a queue of traffic in the left turn lane and you jump the queue by going around the roundabout thats well within the purview of section 3 of the rta.

This is what the CPS say:

This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness in addition to some other inconvenience to road users. The following examples are typical of actions likely to be regarded as inconsiderate driving:

flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way;
misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause;
driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians;
driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed;
driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers.

Fair enough.

I don't think it's 'misuse of any lane' to use a right lane to turn right at a roundabout. Although I am not sure I would want to argue that in court.

[Elysium]

jamei303 said:

eltawater said:

I call BS on that as you're using the roundabout as a roundabout.

You're using the right-turn approach lane to turn left.

No you are turning right. Just by more than 180 degrees.