Crime doesn't pay? Credit card fraud tracing.
Discussion
Tl:DR: If credit card details are readily available on the internet and fraudulent use is never chased up then why bother to pay for anything yourself?
Longer version (cool starry bra, of course): A friend recently had her credit card details stolen. The cards were in her house when some tradesmen were there, the cards weren't physically taken but the fraudulent transactions started within 2 hours of the tradesmen leaving the house. A phone is missing as well. No proof but it's all deeply suspicious.
She notified the Police and her CC Companies (2 cards, one for work one for home). The Police have said that they won't investigate as they don't have the resources. The CC Companies have refunded the money (a little over £2k) and are 'conducting an investigation' but have told her on the telephone that the investigations very rarely find anything and it's easier to refund the money and stop the card, both of which have been done. They also said that it's quite likely that the cards were simply photographed (front and rear) and the images sold on to someone else. The upshot is that the thief will almost certainly never be traced and no punishment will happen.
Curious to learn more, I've just downloaded The Onion Router and looked at The Dark Web. I've never done it before and don't fancy doing it again but it seems that you can buy lists of credit card details for not much more than a couple of quid. If it really is this easy to have fraudulent access to credit card details then why should anyone ever both to pay for anything themselves? A couple of quid via PayPal will net me a list of credit card numbers which I can then use to pay for whatever I want. Easy money with no comebacks whatsoever.
We've all heard the 'Police Resources' line before and are all disgusted by it. However surely CC transactions are very easy to trace in a matter of seconds? The payments on my friend's abused cards including paying a court fine, paying for a TravelLodge, paying for an Uber taxi and paying for a Netflix subscription. All of these will be traceable to real people, many of them will surely lead to real names and real addresses (the court one particularly). Given that the thief will have left a trail a mile wide then I'm amazed that no-one can be bothered to trace it, and am also amazed that this problem is not more widespread.
I'm also amazed that I bother to do real work. I'd far rather have £2k buckshee than work for a living. Am I tempted? Quite possibly, yes.
Longer version (cool starry bra, of course): A friend recently had her credit card details stolen. The cards were in her house when some tradesmen were there, the cards weren't physically taken but the fraudulent transactions started within 2 hours of the tradesmen leaving the house. A phone is missing as well. No proof but it's all deeply suspicious.
She notified the Police and her CC Companies (2 cards, one for work one for home). The Police have said that they won't investigate as they don't have the resources. The CC Companies have refunded the money (a little over £2k) and are 'conducting an investigation' but have told her on the telephone that the investigations very rarely find anything and it's easier to refund the money and stop the card, both of which have been done. They also said that it's quite likely that the cards were simply photographed (front and rear) and the images sold on to someone else. The upshot is that the thief will almost certainly never be traced and no punishment will happen.
Curious to learn more, I've just downloaded The Onion Router and looked at The Dark Web. I've never done it before and don't fancy doing it again but it seems that you can buy lists of credit card details for not much more than a couple of quid. If it really is this easy to have fraudulent access to credit card details then why should anyone ever both to pay for anything themselves? A couple of quid via PayPal will net me a list of credit card numbers which I can then use to pay for whatever I want. Easy money with no comebacks whatsoever.
We've all heard the 'Police Resources' line before and are all disgusted by it. However surely CC transactions are very easy to trace in a matter of seconds? The payments on my friend's abused cards including paying a court fine, paying for a TravelLodge, paying for an Uber taxi and paying for a Netflix subscription. All of these will be traceable to real people, many of them will surely lead to real names and real addresses (the court one particularly). Given that the thief will have left a trail a mile wide then I'm amazed that no-one can be bothered to trace it, and am also amazed that this problem is not more widespread.
I'm also amazed that I bother to do real work. I'd far rather have £2k buckshee than work for a living. Am I tempted? Quite possibly, yes.
I agree absolutely no incentive for anyone to stop this as it never / rarely gets chased up. Before I realized it was a risk, my CC details were logged with X Box for purchases for my son etc only for some scrote to log in to the account and use the stored card to buy stuff then "share it" with friends! M/Soft couldn't give a f
k and neither could the police but yes I did get it back eventually via a CC claim. Card details since deleted from there.
TX.
k and neither could the police but yes I did get it back eventually via a CC claim. Card details since deleted from there. TX.
2Btoo said:
We've all heard the 'Police Resources' line before and are all disgusted by it. However surely CC transactions are very easy to trace in a matter of seconds? The payments on my friend's abused cards including paying a court fine, paying for a TravelLodge, paying for an Uber taxi and paying for a Netflix subscription. All of these will be traceable to real people, many of them will surely lead to real names and real addresses (the court one particularly). Given that the thief will have left a trail a mile wide then I'm amazed that no-one can be bothered to trace it, and am also amazed that this problem is not more widespread.
So the tracing takes "a matter of seconds". Think about exactly how the rest of the evidence gathering might be conducted. Think about how many person hours that would take. Think about the calls for visible police presence on our streets. Think about 20000 fewer of those officers to deal with everything they are expected to deal with. Be disgusted. LOBBY YOUR MP. DO IT AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN UNTIL SOMETHING CHANGES. Then, when we actually have the resources to deal with this kind of crime, come back and wring your hands some more. If you're not prepared to go to the source of the problem with the problem and keep pushing until it's fixed, try not to be surprised when this kind of thing is not given the time you appear to think it warrants.Pothole said:
So the tracing takes "a matter of seconds". Think about exactly how the rest of the evidence gathering might be conducted. Think about how many person hours that would take. Think about the calls for visible police presence on our streets.
I see your point, but resources are chucked at things that are far less important. I'd rather they let the smackheads and junkies kick fk out of each other and lie in their own vomit and filth when they get fked up in the streets, than have 6 officers and ambulance crews running about after them and go after cc fraudsters. As for the continuing extra money to "find maddie", don't get us started!
Violence isn't less important than fraud so in the real world that won't happen.
Fraud offences nearly double the total amount of crime. There we an estimated 6.2 millions crimes last year and when you add fraud that rises to 10.7 million.
Good luck policing that without having thousands of officers just working on fraud cases.
OP see how you get on. Start by trusting the people on the dark web selling credit card details. What could go wrong?
I mean, why wouldn't people do it? No ethical / moral aspect to consider...
Fraud offences nearly double the total amount of crime. There we an estimated 6.2 millions crimes last year and when you add fraud that rises to 10.7 million.
Good luck policing that without having thousands of officers just working on fraud cases.
OP see how you get on. Start by trusting the people on the dark web selling credit card details. What could go wrong?
I mean, why wouldn't people do it? No ethical / moral aspect to consider...
I totally agree.
Crime does seem to pay and convictions seem to count for a very small proportion of the actual crime committed.
The thing I think though, certainly in your case, is that why can't there be a process for YOU to take it further. i.e. the police being able to give you a reference for you to be able to get the details of who the uber/netflix/travelodge was for.
I know that seems crazy but if the police are not willing to spend time on minor crimes then why not at least let the victims put their time into it....
Crime does seem to pay and convictions seem to count for a very small proportion of the actual crime committed.
The thing I think though, certainly in your case, is that why can't there be a process for YOU to take it further. i.e. the police being able to give you a reference for you to be able to get the details of who the uber/netflix/travelodge was for.
I know that seems crazy but if the police are not willing to spend time on minor crimes then why not at least let the victims put their time into it....
The cardholder has been reimbursed - its now down to the credit card company to pursue and report the matter to the NFIB. Its not a Police resourcing matter - those are the recording rules. Once the details required to identify the suspects have been obtained then the Police get involved and deal
poo at Paul's said:
Pothole said:
So the tracing takes "a matter of seconds". Think about exactly how the rest of the evidence gathering might be conducted. Think about how many person hours that would take. Think about the calls for visible police presence on our streets.
I see your point, but resources are chucked at things that are far less important. I'd rather they let the smackheads and junkies kick fk out of each other and lie in their own vomit and filth when they get fked up in the streets, than have 6 officers and ambulance crews running about after them and go after cc fraudsters. As for the continuing extra money to "find maddie", don't get us started!
Pothole said:
So the tracing takes "a matter of seconds". Think about exactly how the rest of the evidence gathering might be conducted. Think about how many person hours that would take. Think about the calls for visible police presence on our streets. Think about 20000 fewer of those officers to deal with everything they are expected to deal with. Be disgusted. LOBBY YOUR MP. DO IT AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN UNTIL SOMETHING CHANGES. Then, when we actually have the resources to deal with this kind of crime, come back and wring your hands some more. If you're not prepared to go to the source of the problem with the problem and keep pushing until it's fixed, try not to be surprised when this kind of thing is not given the time you appear to think it warrants.
This is very clearly a specious argument. While crime such as this is unpunished then there is no deterrent to committing it and it will increase. One may suggest that the reason it is so prevalent now is precisely because it has never been policed. Put it another way; if the person who stole the credit card details knew with absolute certainty that they would be traced and called to account then do you think they would have gone ahead with the crime? Compare that with the current reality where they know they are almost guaranteed that they will get away scott-free and continue with impunity.
La Liga said:
I mean, why wouldn't people do it? No ethical / moral aspect to consider...
.... and that seems to be the the only reason not to commit a crime like this - because you (or I) know it is wrong. Long may the majority carry on having ethics and morals, I fear the day that that ever changes. The global nature of fraud is also worth considering. Crimes may occur in the UK / against UK citizens, but the offenders may be elsewhere.
The other issue with fraud is how much work it takes to investigate / detect. Compared to a lot other crimes is massively convoluted, bureaucratic and slow.
The other issue with fraud is how much work it takes to investigate / detect. Compared to a lot other crimes is massively convoluted, bureaucratic and slow.
La Liga said:
The global nature of fraud is also worth considering. Crimes may occur in the UK / against UK citizens, but the offenders may be elsewhere.
The other issue with fraud is how much work it takes to investigate / detect. Compared to a lot other crimes is massively convoluted, bureaucratic and slow.
Two good points. The other issue with fraud is how much work it takes to investigate / detect. Compared to a lot other crimes is massively convoluted, bureaucratic and slow.
1. We are living in a more joined-up world. However the theft was definitely in the UK and the fraudulent purchases were made with UK companies as well as the UK court service. I take your point that the person making the fraudulent transactions may have been outside the UK when it happened but I think this is very unlikely and also probably irrelevant.
2. See my point above about specious arguments, although I'll grant there has to be a point where something is really not worth investigating. However in this case there is over £2k's worth of fraudulent activity. How much effort is 'too much' when there is £2k at stake? Pay someone £100/day (equates to about the average national wage) and that's 20 days worth of work. I struggle to believe that you couldn't find a name and address of the beneficiary of the fraudulent transactions given 20 days to work on it, which leads me to think that the CC company probably could do so but knows that the Police/CPS wouldn't bring any form of case so they know it's not worth doing. OK, that last bit is supposition but I look forward to hearing the reasons why it isn't so.
2Btoo said:
La Liga said:
The global nature of fraud is also worth considering. Crimes may occur in the UK / against UK citizens, but the offenders may be elsewhere.
The other issue with fraud is how much work it takes to investigate / detect. Compared to a lot other crimes is massively convoluted, bureaucratic and slow.
Two good points. The other issue with fraud is how much work it takes to investigate / detect. Compared to a lot other crimes is massively convoluted, bureaucratic and slow.
1. We are living in a more joined-up world. However the theft was definitely in the UK and the fraudulent purchases were made with UK companies as well as the UK court service. I take your point that the person making the fraudulent transactions may have been outside the UK when it happened but I think this is very unlikely and also probably irrelevant.
2. See my point above about specious arguments, although I'll grant there has to be a point where something is really not worth investigating. However in this case there is over £2k's worth of fraudulent activity. How much effort is 'too much' when there is £2k at stake? Pay someone £100/day (equates to about the average national wage) and that's 20 days worth of work. I struggle to believe that you couldn't find a name and address of the beneficiary of the fraudulent transactions given 20 days to work on it, which leads me to think that the CC company probably could do so but knows that the Police/CPS wouldn't bring any form of case so they know it's not worth doing. OK, that last bit is supposition but I look forward to hearing the reasons why it isn't so.
2Btoo said:
2. See my point above about specious arguments, although I'll grant there has to be a point where something is really not worth investigating. However in this case there is over £2k's worth of fraudulent activity. How much effort is 'too much' when there is £2k at stake? Pay someone £100/day (equates to about the average national wage) and that's 20 days worth of work. I struggle to believe that you couldn't find a name and address of the beneficiary of the fraudulent transactions given 20 days to work on it, which leads me to think that the CC company probably could do so but knows that the Police/CPS wouldn't bring any form of case so they know it's not worth doing. OK, that last bit is supposition but I look forward to hearing the reasons why it isn't so.
Regardless of anything else, it's the practical realities of high demand crime (both in terms of total volume and as an individual crime) vs massively insufficient resources. The police are now primarily a responsive service now. Serious investigations have dedicated resources but the volumes of more minor crime 'regular' police officers carry is well beyond the time they have to investigate and deal with it.
2Btoo said:
A couple of quid via PayPal will net me a list of credit card numbers which I can then use to pay for whatever I want. Easy money with no comebacks whatsoever.
.
Out of interest, what/how would you buy etc?.
It's not as easy as some people think making sure there is no trace to your actual identity.
rxe said:
I think the point is being made that it doesn't really matter what you buy.
If someone has made a court payment with a stolen card, there can't be any issue getting stuff delivered to your address.
It's a funny old world - if rather than nicking stuff on stolen credit cards, I just stuck a NIP in the bin when it arrived, I'm moderately confident that the police would eventually show up.
If someone has made a court payment with a stolen card, there can't be any issue getting stuff delivered to your address.
It's a funny old world - if rather than nicking stuff on stolen credit cards, I just stuck a NIP in the bin when it arrived, I'm moderately confident that the police would eventually show up.
I used to work in our Police Ops room. We took all 101 and 999 calls.
The advice we would give is to report the details to Action Fraud, the bank or card company etc. They were the investigating body who would get back to police if and whan they had uncovered sufficient evidence to pursue the case, i.e. of sufficient level to know or pursue arrest etc.. We would often (not always depending on circumstances) log the call and give a reference to come back to if needed.
This was to prevent tieing up an officer(s) chasing the banks/card companies for details, tracing computer forensics etc., in the hope of getting evidence that could be acted on. There was consultation to set this up as it can be resource sapping for the police. Basically the legwork is done for the police.
However, if the banks/ card companies cannot or will not investigate then they suck up losses or pass on their losses to customers ( as in car insurance).
Fraud can be a very complex investigation, especially when it involves well organised gangs.
The advice we would give is to report the details to Action Fraud, the bank or card company etc. They were the investigating body who would get back to police if and whan they had uncovered sufficient evidence to pursue the case, i.e. of sufficient level to know or pursue arrest etc.. We would often (not always depending on circumstances) log the call and give a reference to come back to if needed.
This was to prevent tieing up an officer(s) chasing the banks/card companies for details, tracing computer forensics etc., in the hope of getting evidence that could be acted on. There was consultation to set this up as it can be resource sapping for the police. Basically the legwork is done for the police.
However, if the banks/ card companies cannot or will not investigate then they suck up losses or pass on their losses to customers ( as in car insurance).
Fraud can be a very complex investigation, especially when it involves well organised gangs.
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