Modern classics and (not) driving abroad
Discussion
Slightly glum, this. Was considering taking my 964 cabrio to Paris to look at another 964 a dealer has for sale. Unfortunately, the French equivalent of the ULEZ has no option to pay to play. No sticker = no entry. Cars registered before 1997 are not eligible for a sticker, unless they're historics, which is still 14 years away for my car. This also means no entry into a number of other European cities, and the possibility of being blocked from travel on larger roads if a (weather-dependent) temporary restriction is in force - notably around Grenoble on the way to the coast, for instance.
So, weirdly, I can take my 356 to Paris, but not my 964. And I can't take the 356 to Grenoble as they have no historic exemption. Looks like the end of classic touring is nigh, since these air quality zones are sprouting up everywhere. For example, there's a ZPA (temporary zone) covering the whole of the Gironde - so no Route du Vin in an old car in good weather (because a nice high pressure zone will also trap pollution and trigger the ZPA driving ban for cars without the sticker, or with the kind of sticker you'd get for, e.g., a 993).
Makes me rethink my plan to build a nice collection - what's the point if you can't use it? I wouldn't mind having to pay - as I would have to do in London - since this would be occasional travel only, but this is a straight ban.
And what's weird is that my 964 has a cat, and gets about 30mpg. They apparently would have no problem with me touring the Gironde in an 8-year-old Aventador (anything petrol registered after the 1st of Jan 2011 gets the "best" type 1 badge, that lets you drive at any time), despite it putting out about twice the CO2 and presumably a similarly higher quantity of particulates.
The trouble with modern sports cars is that most of them lose value rather than holding or gaining it. Of course, with this approach to air quality, I suppose that may change. It's conceivable that all older cars will be unusable, and therefore valueless, within a decade. That would certainly destroy quite a lot of value given where the market is at the moment...
So, weirdly, I can take my 356 to Paris, but not my 964. And I can't take the 356 to Grenoble as they have no historic exemption. Looks like the end of classic touring is nigh, since these air quality zones are sprouting up everywhere. For example, there's a ZPA (temporary zone) covering the whole of the Gironde - so no Route du Vin in an old car in good weather (because a nice high pressure zone will also trap pollution and trigger the ZPA driving ban for cars without the sticker, or with the kind of sticker you'd get for, e.g., a 993).
Makes me rethink my plan to build a nice collection - what's the point if you can't use it? I wouldn't mind having to pay - as I would have to do in London - since this would be occasional travel only, but this is a straight ban.
And what's weird is that my 964 has a cat, and gets about 30mpg. They apparently would have no problem with me touring the Gironde in an 8-year-old Aventador (anything petrol registered after the 1st of Jan 2011 gets the "best" type 1 badge, that lets you drive at any time), despite it putting out about twice the CO2 and presumably a similarly higher quantity of particulates.
The trouble with modern sports cars is that most of them lose value rather than holding or gaining it. Of course, with this approach to air quality, I suppose that may change. It's conceivable that all older cars will be unusable, and therefore valueless, within a decade. That would certainly destroy quite a lot of value given where the market is at the moment...
It's not just Paris. It's most of France. There's quite a lot of France you can't easily get to without going via Paris, too - for instance if you drive from the Alps to Normandy, you have to go via Paris and use the BP. It also means you can't take a classic to the Cote d'Azur, or to Bordeaux, because you can't get past Grenoble, and the Gironde has a Department-wide ZPA.
You can't do this: https://petrolicious.com/articles/emory-motorsport... because there's a ZPA in Isere, First world problem coming: I can't, e.g., use any of our old cars to go from our flat in Courmayeur to our house outside Lisieux.
It will, of course, happen here too. But right now unless you're the kind of Brexiteer who actually never wants to leave Britain, it's a huge reduction in the opportunities to enjoy driving old cars, and there's no obvious lobby that will fight it given Thunberg on one side and the obvious self-interest of the car manufacturers on the other.
You can't do this: https://petrolicious.com/articles/emory-motorsport... because there's a ZPA in Isere, First world problem coming: I can't, e.g., use any of our old cars to go from our flat in Courmayeur to our house outside Lisieux.
It will, of course, happen here too. But right now unless you're the kind of Brexiteer who actually never wants to leave Britain, it's a huge reduction in the opportunities to enjoy driving old cars, and there's no obvious lobby that will fight it given Thunberg on one side and the obvious self-interest of the car manufacturers on the other.
Doofus said:
ZPAs are not permanent. They are activated according to weather or pollution levels. Exemptions are possible in most areas for classics over 30 years old.
The exemptions vary by city with no national policy and have to be applied for separately for each city, which makes it pretty inconvenient if you want to tour around; they're fairly easy to get if you have a French-registered car with a "Z" historic marker, but a little more challenging if your car is UK-registered, especially since our "historic" category starts at 40 years old. The activation of the ZPA can't be predicted - so you could end up, e.g., stuck somewhere in the Gironde unable to travel until the pollution clears or the weather changes. You're supposed to use an app to check in real time whether and where you're allowed to drive. It feels pretty restrictive to me.964Cup said:
The exemptions vary by city with no national policy and have to be applied for separately for each city, which makes it pretty inconvenient if you want to tour around; they're fairly easy to get if you have a French-registered car with a "Z" historic marker, but a little more challenging if your car is UK-registered, especially since our "historic" category starts at 40 years old. The activation of the ZPA can't be predicted - so you could end up, e.g., stuck somewhere in the Gironde unable to travel until the pollution clears or the weather changes. You're supposed to use an app to check in real time whether and where you're allowed to drive. It feels pretty restrictive to me.
I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding (unhelpful) detail for other readers. 
964Cup said:
Cars registered before 1997 are not eligible for a sticker, unless they're historics, which is still 14 years away for my car.
Really? Must be a new restriction then since my 1995 993 got a sticker without a quibble a couple of years ago. Maybe the rules state one thing but the reality is somewhat more elastic. It is France after all 
So no eligibility for cars up to 31.12.1996. Presumably it's a rolling thing, which is why you got a sticker a couple of years ago. I assume it's a 5, though, so you still can't drive in Paris or in an active ZPA.
What galls me about it is that there's no (official) flexibility at all. The UK system where you pay a charge if your car is not compliant seems better - it will still discourage routine use of polluting vehicles, while allowing you occasional enjoyment.
I'll find out a bit more later - there's still this car I want to see in Paris, and I have no idea how they think I'm going to test drive it (or even get it out of the city if I buy it - do they expect me to leave super early in the morning or after 8pm?) since their showroom is inside the ZCR and the car is a '92 964.
964Cup said:
It's not just Paris. It's most of France. There's quite a lot of France you can't easily get to without going via Paris, too - for instance if you drive from the Alps to Normandy, you have to go via Paris and use the BP. It also means you can't take a classic to the Cote d'Azur, or to Bordeaux, because you can't get past Grenoble, and the Gironde has a Department-wide ZPA.
It looks as though the A20 south skips between two ZPAs - while technically the Easterly one touches on the A20, you might be able to ignore the 3 yards of overlap - or there are some country roads in-between...akirk said:
It looks as though the A20 south skips between two ZPAs - while technically the Easterly one touches on the A20, you might be able to ignore the 3 yards of overlap - or there are some country roads in-between...
I'm sure it's manageable at the moment, and French traffic enforcement has always been fairly spotty, but the principle is worrying. I'm conflicted, because I'm pretty committed to CO2 reduction in my daily life (cycling, electric cars etc), but I still want to enjoy proper cars from time to time. To cover my output from say 3,000 miles of Porsche touring I only need to skip one European return flight, but you don't get credit for that, or for cycling instead of driving. As I said above I don't mind paying for the privilege if I have to, but a straight ban on driving or a potential multi-hundred-euro fine because a ZPA gets switched on while I'm halfway across the Gironde and not looking at my phone - oh, wait, you're not supposed to look at your phone while you're driving, hmmm - is a pretty blunt instrument.964Cup said:
akirk said:
It looks as though the A20 south skips between two ZPAs - while technically the Easterly one touches on the A20, you might be able to ignore the 3 yards of overlap - or there are some country roads in-between...
I'm sure it's manageable at the moment, and French traffic enforcement has always been fairly spotty, but the principle is worrying. I'm conflicted, because I'm pretty committed to CO2 reduction in my daily life (cycling, electric cars etc), but I still want to enjoy proper cars from time to time. To cover my output from say 3,000 miles of Porsche touring I only need to skip one European return flight, but you don't get credit for that, or for cycling instead of driving. As I said above I don't mind paying for the privilege if I have to, but a straight ban on driving or a potential multi-hundred-euro fine because a ZPA gets switched on while I'm halfway across the Gironde and not looking at my phone - oh, wait, you're not supposed to look at your phone while you're driving, hmmm - is a pretty blunt instrument.you don't have to look at your phone - no change takes place until the day after it is announced - and for example the Gironde region has a staged process:
- warning
- ban level 5 vehicles
- ban level 4 vehicles
etc.
so, in reality, it shouldn't affect many people and certainly not changing on the day as you are driving...
Europe very much frowns upon classics and older sportscars. EU is still hashing out laws that could see classics effectively banned from the roads.
It all stems from Germany, where social conformance is a really big deal, they have a strong dislike for anything that steps too far outside the "norm". The French just do what they always do, roll over and shout "seig heil".
It all stems from Germany, where social conformance is a really big deal, they have a strong dislike for anything that steps too far outside the "norm". The French just do what they always do, roll over and shout "seig heil".
964Cup said:
I'll find out a bit more later - there's still this car I want to see in Paris, and I have no idea how they think I'm going to test drive it (or even get it out of the city if I buy it - do they expect me to leave super early in the morning or after 8pm?) since their showroom is inside the ZCR and the car is a '92 964.
I went to Paris a few years ago, and people were smoking inside and the Metro stations had zero disability access even though the EU mandated both things to change especially in 2009 when I went. So, unlike the toss pot above me, the French don't roll over and do what they're told. They just shrug their shoulders. off the back of this thread, and as I am in Bordeaux in an M5 in a few weeks I pinged a message over to the Bordeaux Tourist folks...
their response:
as I understand it - these regions are variable - i.e. they have passed the law to be allowed to make these decisions - the decisions are not there by default - and Bordeaux / Gironde passed their laws in 2017 and say that they have never activated it... so in theory you can drive through in any car - as I understand it, the Crit-Air stickers only apply once they activate restrictions - and they will always give 24 hours notice
so no issue driving an old car down through France a) you probably won't be restricted and b) you would still have 24 hours to get through the zone (ample for any classic car not wearing a LR badge )
their response:
Bordeaux Tourism Bods said:
We thank you for your message.
For the time being, this restriction has never been activated in the Gironde district, which means that it will probably occur very rarely. As we have never lived such a case it is difficult to tell you what happens in this situation, but according to the information found, your crit-air sticker can allow you to use your car on such a day.
Normally you won't have any problem driving from one place to another in Gironde.
so...For the time being, this restriction has never been activated in the Gironde district, which means that it will probably occur very rarely. As we have never lived such a case it is difficult to tell you what happens in this situation, but according to the information found, your crit-air sticker can allow you to use your car on such a day.
Normally you won't have any problem driving from one place to another in Gironde.
as I understand it - these regions are variable - i.e. they have passed the law to be allowed to make these decisions - the decisions are not there by default - and Bordeaux / Gironde passed their laws in 2017 and say that they have never activated it... so in theory you can drive through in any car - as I understand it, the Crit-Air stickers only apply once they activate restrictions - and they will always give 24 hours notice
so no issue driving an old car down through France a) you probably won't be restricted and b) you would still have 24 hours to get through the zone (ample for any classic car not wearing a LR badge
)What is the fine?
I drove my 3.2 to the Porsche factory, which isn’t allowed for the same reason. Just accepted that I might get a small fine. In the end nothing happened and research seemed to show that locals didn’t bother.
Things may have changed in the last few years, and this was Germany
I drove my 3.2 to the Porsche factory, which isn’t allowed for the same reason. Just accepted that I might get a small fine. In the end nothing happened and research seemed to show that locals didn’t bother.
Things may have changed in the last few years, and this was Germany
Seems mad, fair play sting someone trying to commute in it, but mad you can't do £20 for a day pass.
Mind you, driving in Paris in the Westfield was an experience in in no rush to repeat. Nearly got mugged by window washers, boiled over in traffic, got lost, and ripped a chunk out out of the bell housing on a carpark gate runner.
Daniel
Mind you, driving in Paris in the Westfield was an experience in in no rush to repeat. Nearly got mugged by window washers, boiled over in traffic, got lost, and ripped a chunk out out of the bell housing on a carpark gate runner.
Daniel
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