A consumer's dilemma
Discussion
In mid 2016 I specced and ordered a lightweight wheelchair along with a clip-on electric motor for both indoor and outdoor use. This motor cost more than £4k so it wasn't cheap. It was all delivered to me in late '16.
The motor's purpose was to add a dimension of mobility to holidays, and it was taken to Majorca for a week in April '17 and again to South of France for a week in June '17. And it was really good to use for a total of about 6 hours and had no problems.
Its next use was when it was taken to Tenerife last month and .......nothing. Stone dead! So on our return, as requested, it was sent back for examination/repair.
Today I get an email telling me its circuit board and battery need replaced. For £2200!! (2 year warranty having expired). After a total of a maximum of 6 hours really light use!!
Obviously there's no point in paying £2k+ to sort it if there's every chance it'll only last another 6 hours given that it's going to be used in exactly the same way were it to be returned repaired. But I also don't really feel like telling them to just stick it up their arse and forgetting about it.
In respect of its very short period of functioning use, and despite the warranty period having expired, does the consumer have any right to expect a free major parts replacement or indeed a replacement of the entire device?
The motor's purpose was to add a dimension of mobility to holidays, and it was taken to Majorca for a week in April '17 and again to South of France for a week in June '17. And it was really good to use for a total of about 6 hours and had no problems.
Its next use was when it was taken to Tenerife last month and .......nothing. Stone dead! So on our return, as requested, it was sent back for examination/repair.
Today I get an email telling me its circuit board and battery need replaced. For £2200!! (2 year warranty having expired). After a total of a maximum of 6 hours really light use!!
Obviously there's no point in paying £2k+ to sort it if there's every chance it'll only last another 6 hours given that it's going to be used in exactly the same way were it to be returned repaired. But I also don't really feel like telling them to just stick it up their arse and forgetting about it.
In respect of its very short period of functioning use, and despite the warranty period having expired, does the consumer have any right to expect a free major parts replacement or indeed a replacement of the entire device?
I'd imagine there's a third party out there somewhere who can repair this sort of thing?
The battery I kind of understand copping it through lack of use, but I wonder what damaged the circuit board? If it's something like an on board button cell battery leaking and damaging it, perhaps it's a relatively simple repair.
The battery I kind of understand copping it through lack of use, but I wonder what damaged the circuit board? If it's something like an on board button cell battery leaking and damaging it, perhaps it's a relatively simple repair.
Meoricin said:
How are you going to prove that you've only used it for 6 hours in the 2 years you've owned it?
Surely a competent engineer can ascertain the amount of use the device has provided. Apart from which there is a witness, albeit it's my wife. And were the matter to end up in a legal forum, an experienced bench is competent to decide the credibility of a witness.Had the thing been seriously and frequently used then despite it being not long out of warranty I would have accepted that, as I did with an AEG washer drier that "died" exactly a week after its guarantee ended some 15 years ago.
But this thing has had next to no use and I have already asked for an opinion on what caused the malfunctions of not one but TWO major parts.
Because of such little use and because no fault was evidenced during the periods of use my amateur logic leads me to think it's the NON-usage that somehow caused the problem. But if so then either during the sales process or via the accompanying literature why wasn't there any warning about such a thing. Which I feel it would be reasonable to expect.
Edited by selmahoose on Thursday 6th June 22:07
InitialDave said:
I'd imagine there's a third party out there somewhere who can repair this sort of thing?
The battery I kind of understand copping it through lack of use, but I wonder what damaged the circuit board? If it's something like an on board button cell battery leaking and damaging it, perhaps it's a relatively simple repair.
I have close to zero technical know-how Dave. This is the thing here:The battery I kind of understand copping it through lack of use, but I wonder what damaged the circuit board? If it's something like an on board button cell battery leaking and damaging it, perhaps it's a relatively simple repair.
http://www.permobil.com/en-GB/English/Smartdrive-M...
It's really excellent in use and I'm loath to "walk" away from it. So who (which 3rd party) would repair such a thing?
Edited by selmahoose on Thursday 6th June 22:03
k up a lithium battery?I have no idea about the circuit board issue, but if the battery is lithium ion then you need to keep it charged and top up each month minimum. In electric bikes (pedal) this is made pretty clear by the manufacturer. Did you receive this advice / is it in the manual and did you follow it?
What maintenance regime was in place whilst it was unused for two years?
Where was it stored?
I could well imagine something seizing, drying out, deteriorating over two years to the point where it could cause overload and electronic damage when next used.
Did you have any instructions about laying it up?
Where was it stored?
I could well imagine something seizing, drying out, deteriorating over two years to the point where it could cause overload and electronic damage when next used.
Did you have any instructions about laying it up?
Joelonghair said:
I have no idea about the circuit board issue, but if the battery is lithium ion then you need to keep it charged and top up each month minimum. In electric bikes (pedal) this is made pretty clear by the manufacturer. Did you receive this advice / is it in the manual and did you follow it?
Had no idea about that (which it would have been really easy to do). Nope. No advice, not in manual. Nada.REALIST123 said:
What maintenance regime was in place whilst it was unused for two years?
Where was it stored?
I could well imagine something seizing, drying out, deteriorating over two years to the point where it could cause overload and electronic damage when next used.
Did you have any instructions about laying it up?
Zero maintenance since new. None advised/recommended etc. No instructions about 'sorning' it. During nearly 2 years of non-use was merely stored in its box in a dry storage cupboard in the house.Where was it stored?
I could well imagine something seizing, drying out, deteriorating over two years to the point where it could cause overload and electronic damage when next used.
Did you have any instructions about laying it up?
Be worth checking online for a manual. A blind relative had an expensive (£000s) device for turning printed paper into spoken text, and that had all sorts of battery issues it seemed.
Basically it needed a full charge every 30 days, otherwise, it thought it had died, and when you gave it new charge if if was over 30 days, you had to go to the settings and set the devices date to less than 30 days ago and it would ‘remember’ itself back to life.
Trainers and sellers were unaware of this and it wasn’t in the paper or Braille manual with the device.
Basically it needed a full charge every 30 days, otherwise, it thought it had died, and when you gave it new charge if if was over 30 days, you had to go to the settings and set the devices date to less than 30 days ago and it would ‘remember’ itself back to life.
Trainers and sellers were unaware of this and it wasn’t in the paper or Braille manual with the device.
This is copy/pasted from the manual:
Battery Information: The drive unit houses the rechargeable Lithium Iron Phosphate battery used to power the SmartDrive motor. The newest in Lithium-Ion technology, these batteries offer a significantly longer cycle life and faster charging rate than standard lithium ion cells.The blue LEDs on top of the drive unit are used to indicate the battery charge level. All four (4) LEDs being illuminated indicate a full battery. As the charge of the battery decreases, so does the number of LEDs being lit. The drive unit will give a beep whenever the battery is below 20% and the power assist is activated to let you know charging of the battery should be done as soon as possible to avoid running completely out.Low wristband battery is indicated by the LED on the wristband flashing blue then red every (1.5) seconds when on. Again, charging of this battery should be done as soon as possible to avoid running completely out.It is encouraged to charge each battery every night to avoid running out of charge during daily use. The life of the battery will not be deteriorated by charging when it is partially drained.Make sure the charging receptacles are completely dry and free from debris [as the magnets can attract some] before plugging in the charger, for this can cause a spark or short. Blow water out of the receptacle if you suspect there being water in it. It is also recommended to always cover the button/charger receptacle whenever either are not plugged into the drive unit.
Long-term storage of the batteries [more than 3 months] reduces its capacity through spontaneous discharge. Charge the battery to at least 30% before you store it long-term, and avoid storing the unit where the temperature is too high or with high humidity.
Drive Unit Battery Charging Only use the provided charger to recharge the drive unit of the SmartDrive. Other chargers may damage your unit, or cause a fire. Also, always power off and never attempt to use the drive unit while charging.The battery charger is to be used indoors and in dry locations. Use an easily accessible outlet that is close to drive unit that is to be charged.Do not use or attempt to repair a damaged/defective charger. Contact Max Mobility if a charger is damaged and do not dispose of in your household garbage.The charging transformer box is intended to be laid flat during charging.Only use the power supply cord provided with the charger. The charger is capable of operating at different voltages with-out adjustment.
There is no manual data on the circuit board. The unit, with charge in it when stored, was stored in a normal, dry storage cupboard
in Scotland where we have neither high temperatures nor humidity.
Battery Information: The drive unit houses the rechargeable Lithium Iron Phosphate battery used to power the SmartDrive motor. The newest in Lithium-Ion technology, these batteries offer a significantly longer cycle life and faster charging rate than standard lithium ion cells.The blue LEDs on top of the drive unit are used to indicate the battery charge level. All four (4) LEDs being illuminated indicate a full battery. As the charge of the battery decreases, so does the number of LEDs being lit. The drive unit will give a beep whenever the battery is below 20% and the power assist is activated to let you know charging of the battery should be done as soon as possible to avoid running completely out.Low wristband battery is indicated by the LED on the wristband flashing blue then red every (1.5) seconds when on. Again, charging of this battery should be done as soon as possible to avoid running completely out.It is encouraged to charge each battery every night to avoid running out of charge during daily use. The life of the battery will not be deteriorated by charging when it is partially drained.Make sure the charging receptacles are completely dry and free from debris [as the magnets can attract some] before plugging in the charger, for this can cause a spark or short. Blow water out of the receptacle if you suspect there being water in it. It is also recommended to always cover the button/charger receptacle whenever either are not plugged into the drive unit.
Long-term storage of the batteries [more than 3 months] reduces its capacity through spontaneous discharge. Charge the battery to at least 30% before you store it long-term, and avoid storing the unit where the temperature is too high or with high humidity.
Drive Unit Battery Charging Only use the provided charger to recharge the drive unit of the SmartDrive. Other chargers may damage your unit, or cause a fire. Also, always power off and never attempt to use the drive unit while charging.The battery charger is to be used indoors and in dry locations. Use an easily accessible outlet that is close to drive unit that is to be charged.Do not use or attempt to repair a damaged/defective charger. Contact Max Mobility if a charger is damaged and do not dispose of in your household garbage.The charging transformer box is intended to be laid flat during charging.Only use the power supply cord provided with the charger. The charger is capable of operating at different voltages with-out adjustment.
There is no manual data on the circuit board. The unit, with charge in it when stored, was stored in a normal, dry storage cupboard
in Scotland where we have neither high temperatures nor humidity.
First off they are taking the piss with the repair charges . A lithium battery of that capacity cost nothing like that much, it will be standard cells , the same kind they use in electric bikes. And the PCB going bad seems odd if switched off , and again the costs are just outrageous. It’s a lot of money, and I would be going down the “not fit for purpose “ route . They will push back, but I think they should be fixing it and fitting a new battery at cost so under £1k
The quoted repair costs sound like a complete piss take!
OP, from what’s been presented so far, the law should be on your side here. They appear to advertise the product as having a five year lifespan, and yours has died after only two, with only very light use.
Product descriptions are taken into account when it comes to assessing if something is satisfactory quality. Price is also taken into account, and this thing was not cheap! And if you can show that the product wasn’t satisfactory quality then you’re entitled to a replacement or a repair under the Consumer Rights Act - outside of warranty or not.
BUT... It would be you that would need to prove that the thing was not satisfactory quality, i.e. that the failure now has been caused by a defect that was present at the time of sale. And I’d imagine the challenge you’re going to be up against here will be an assertion by them that instructions given to protect the battery during storage weren’t followed. Realistically, it's not going to be worth arranging expert assessment and evidence to prove that you did store it properly charged etc and give an opinion on the cause of the failure.
I’d suggest that you start by trying to get them to state what they think the cause of the two failures are and take it from there. For example, if they say the battery was dead flat and that caused a leak which damaged the circuit board to fail, you know you’re not starting from a good place.
As a practical point when you’re trying to persuade them to do the right thing, I should think that in this sector, reputational damage would be a major worry. And a few well placed reviews / social media posts talking about a £4K unit failing after 6 hours use and the supplier denying responsibly and wanting £2.2k to fix it (or at least the thought of that happening) might make them think a bit differently.
Ps - take screenshots of the product description on the website NOW.
Edited to add some important context!
OP, from what’s been presented so far, the law should be on your side here. They appear to advertise the product as having a five year lifespan, and yours has died after only two, with only very light use.
Product descriptions are taken into account when it comes to assessing if something is satisfactory quality. Price is also taken into account, and this thing was not cheap! And if you can show that the product wasn’t satisfactory quality then you’re entitled to a replacement or a repair under the Consumer Rights Act - outside of warranty or not.
BUT... It would be you that would need to prove that the thing was not satisfactory quality, i.e. that the failure now has been caused by a defect that was present at the time of sale. And I’d imagine the challenge you’re going to be up against here will be an assertion by them that instructions given to protect the battery during storage weren’t followed. Realistically, it's not going to be worth arranging expert assessment and evidence to prove that you did store it properly charged etc and give an opinion on the cause of the failure.
I’d suggest that you start by trying to get them to state what they think the cause of the two failures are and take it from there. For example, if they say the battery was dead flat and that caused a leak which damaged the circuit board to fail, you know you’re not starting from a good place.
As a practical point when you’re trying to persuade them to do the right thing, I should think that in this sector, reputational damage would be a major worry. And a few well placed reviews / social media posts talking about a £4K unit failing after 6 hours use and the supplier denying responsibly and wanting £2.2k to fix it (or at least the thought of that happening) might make them think a bit differently.
Ps - take screenshots of the product description on the website NOW.
Edited to add some important context!
Edited by bladebloke on Friday 7th June 07:36
bladebloke said:
As a practical point when you’re trying to persuade them to do the right thing, I should think that in this sector, reputational damage would be a major worry. And a few well placed reviews / social media posts talking about a £4K unit failing after 6 hours use and the supplier denying responsibly and wanting £2.2k to fix it (or at least the thought of that happening) might make them think a bit differently.
Whilst I do agree it might be worth threatening them with this, I would be very careful what you actually put on social media. Unless you can prove that it has only had 6hrs use (which I think would be nearly impossible) you could be in big trouble. Malicious false claims leading to loss of business could come back to bite you in a very expensive way.Lithium ion phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries are more expensive, have a lower current rating, lower voltage and a lower capacity than the Lithium ion cobalt (LiCoO2) batteries that are ubiquitous (used for example in push bike batteries)
The LiFePo4 are safer than the other variants and you'll get well over a thousand cycles out of them without degradation. Whereas LiCoO2 is usually rated at 80% of it's original capacity after 300 cycles.
I'd say that LiFePo4 is an odd choice for a wheelchair motor battery. Most consumers would rather have the extra capacity (therefore lower volume & weight) of the LiCoO2 and replace the pack every couple of years.
All Lithium rechargeable cells suffer from a couple of problems:
1/ They self discharge at up to 1% per month.
2/ The graphite anode slowly gets coated in a deposit of Lithium, this reduces the current delivering ability of the pack, reduces the capacity and eventually kills the pack completely.
The second problem is accelerated when the pack voltage is very high and at high temperatures.
I suspect that your battery was put away with a low charge level. In two years it will have self discharged below the lowest point that should be used. From there, it will have quickly (& I mean very quickly, a matter of weeks) have deteriorated to the point where the internal safety device has tripped and permanently disconnected the cell(s).
In other words, your battery pack has more than likely died as a result of misuse. I know that this sounds unfair, as "no use" isn't normally associated with misuse.
As for the circuit board, well that should not have failed. The CRA says it should last a reasonable amount of time. Google "Consumer rights act 6 years" and read up. There isn't a hard and fast definition of what a reasonable time is and as you've had some usage the repair bill isn't going to be wholly the liability of the manufacturer.
So in my opinion the battery is wholly your responsibility. The cost of repairing the circuitry should be split between you and the manufacturer.
Lastly, if you take that to be repaired elsewhere, ensure the repairer knows the difference between LiFePo4 and LiCoO2. They have very different voltage ranges. If they fit cobalt based cells you'll likely have trouble. The minimum voltage of the LiFePo4 is slightly lower than the LiCoO2, so depending on the circuitry used the LiCoO2 cells could be damaged by over discharge when used with LiFePo4 circuitry.
You'll also get very little capacity from Cobalt cells used with a LiFePO4 charger.
Does that help?
The LiFePo4 are safer than the other variants and you'll get well over a thousand cycles out of them without degradation. Whereas LiCoO2 is usually rated at 80% of it's original capacity after 300 cycles.
I'd say that LiFePo4 is an odd choice for a wheelchair motor battery. Most consumers would rather have the extra capacity (therefore lower volume & weight) of the LiCoO2 and replace the pack every couple of years.
All Lithium rechargeable cells suffer from a couple of problems:
1/ They self discharge at up to 1% per month.
2/ The graphite anode slowly gets coated in a deposit of Lithium, this reduces the current delivering ability of the pack, reduces the capacity and eventually kills the pack completely.
The second problem is accelerated when the pack voltage is very high and at high temperatures.
I suspect that your battery was put away with a low charge level. In two years it will have self discharged below the lowest point that should be used. From there, it will have quickly (& I mean very quickly, a matter of weeks) have deteriorated to the point where the internal safety device has tripped and permanently disconnected the cell(s).
In other words, your battery pack has more than likely died as a result of misuse. I know that this sounds unfair, as "no use" isn't normally associated with misuse.
As for the circuit board, well that should not have failed. The CRA says it should last a reasonable amount of time. Google "Consumer rights act 6 years" and read up. There isn't a hard and fast definition of what a reasonable time is and as you've had some usage the repair bill isn't going to be wholly the liability of the manufacturer.
So in my opinion the battery is wholly your responsibility. The cost of repairing the circuitry should be split between you and the manufacturer.
Lastly, if you take that to be repaired elsewhere, ensure the repairer knows the difference between LiFePo4 and LiCoO2. They have very different voltage ranges. If they fit cobalt based cells you'll likely have trouble. The minimum voltage of the LiFePo4 is slightly lower than the LiCoO2, so depending on the circuitry used the LiCoO2 cells could be damaged by over discharge when used with LiFePo4 circuitry.
You'll also get very little capacity from Cobalt cells used with a LiFePO4 charger.
Does that help?
Edited by mikeveal on Friday 7th June 15:38
Mike: Yes it's helpful and interesting too.
As regards the battery, assuming you're right then surely the purchaser should have been made aware of this potential non-use hazard and advised to keep the battery charged, rather than advised to ensure it's charged to 30% before storing for more than 3 months?
My 'problem' with this is that if I do get it repaired for £2.2k then who's to say - given it's going to be used in exactly the same way - that I'm not back for another £2.2k's worth of repairs after another few hours use.
BTW who would you go to to get it repaired yourself at potentially far lower cost?
As regards the battery, assuming you're right then surely the purchaser should have been made aware of this potential non-use hazard and advised to keep the battery charged, rather than advised to ensure it's charged to 30% before storing for more than 3 months?
My 'problem' with this is that if I do get it repaired for £2.2k then who's to say - given it's going to be used in exactly the same way - that I'm not back for another £2.2k's worth of repairs after another few hours use.
BTW who would you go to to get it repaired yourself at potentially far lower cost?
selmahoose said:
As regards the battery, assuming you're right then surely the purchaser should have been made aware of this potential non-use hazard and advised to keep the battery charged, rather than advised to ensure it's charged to 30% before storing for more than 3 months?
As a motoring analogy....Remember all the people who have had issues with Diesel Particulate Filters?
In the not too distant past, the issue of short runs with diesel cars was either ignored or unknown by sales persons.
Now, almost everyone knows not to buy a diesel for short runs.
However, even though the Lithium Ion type of battery is relatively new, it has been known for many years that leaving a battery in a discharged state isn't good for the health of the battery - and that applies to the good old lead acid battery, as well as new tech stuff.
So I would agree that the sales staff at least should have mentioned it, as well as a note being made in the unit's manual.
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