Red light camera problems

[V8C]

Ladies and gents, I feel I may have a potential fight on my hands coming up.

Let me set the scene. For anyone that knows the southend area, we are talking about the Progress Road junction with the fairway. For those that don't, I'll describe it.

Heading eastbound, there are two lanes in each direction with a central divide. At progress road, the outside lane splits to straight on and a right turn, however as the road that intersects here is offset, there are a set of lights that allow the traffic turning right across you to do so and then another set of lights 100 yards further ahead that allow you to turn right.

So, what happens. I want to turn right and the traffic is queuing to the first set of lights. As these change to green allowing cars to move up the second set, the traffic filters forwards and begins stopping at the second set which are red.
Immediately after the first lights is a space around 6m in length between the stop line and a yellow box which allows traffic to turn across you (when the lights are red). As the traffic moves up to the second set of lights which were red, I noted that it was unlikely I'd get across without stopping in the yellow box. Therefore I stopped in the 6m between the line and the box. Over the stop line but not obstructing the box.
The lights ahead at set #2 went green as the lights at set 1 went red. As I was already over set 1's stop line but before the yellow box, I simply remained on the brakes and decided not to move as I'd probably obstruct the turning traffic.
Then I saw it. A flash from set 1's red light camera.

So, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be getting a NIP in the post. But as far I'm concerned I will challenge it as I have committed no offence. I crossed the stop line when the lights were green and did not obstruct the yellow box. Traffic was moving as I crossed the stop line and then stopped, causing me decide to sit in the 6m between the line and the yellow box. Comments?

Worth noting the setup of that 6m or so of refuge is not so you're sat like a plum in the middle of a junction, the lights and stop sign are set 6m back so you're still effectively 'in lane' with the central reservation to your right. Google a top-down satellite image of the A127 junction with progress road, southend bound turning right into the fairway if in doubt of what it looks like.

Thanks in advance.

[SS2.]

The offence is committed if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line when the red light is being displayed.

Working on the basis that the two sets of lights are entirely separate - if the whole of your vehicle was beyond the first stop line before the lights changed to red, and as long as no part of the vehicle proceeded beyond the stop line at the second set of lights whilst they were displaying red, then no red light offence was committed.

It does beg the question what triggered the camera, though.

Edited by SS2. on Friday 21st June 17:29

[motco]

You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. Lifted from TfL advice.

[V8C]

Indeed that is the question as my car was wholly over the line when the lights were green and was around half a yard short of the yellow box. I just looked at the junction on Google Maps and there is a white transit van in about the same position on the image as I was in. Fully over the stop line and short of the box.

I was pretty sure that the law was that you could not cross a white stop line while the lights were red and it was really that simple and not that you couldn't be over it already, as for all intents and purposes the line is where the jurisdiction of the lights ends and for all intents and purposes I am just in lane waiting for the second set of lights 100 yards or so ahead to change.

Not sure where the law would stand if I then chose to proceed and collided with the turning traffic though as I'm not held at a stop sign or light, in my own lane and the road ahead is clear.

[V8C]

motco said:

You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. Lifted from TfL advice.

Indeed but in this instance it's not the case the box is for traffic turning across your lane, it then ends and you go back into a filter lane with central reservation right and a concrete lane divider left, up the the lights and turn right.

[martinbiz]

The fact you were not moving points to another vehicle triggering the camera so in your situation I would not panic. it will not trigger from a staionary vehicle no matter where they are in the junction

[Kiribati268]

Tbh, I wouldn't worry. You were stationary and passed the stop line while on green. You can pass the stop line on green, but sit inside the junction when the light goes to red fine. The two flashes will show you not moving, so the person looking at the photos will throw it out.

I'm surprised they activated, usually they are set to flash if something over a certain speed goes through.

[PF62]

V8C said:

Therefore I stopped in the 6m between the line and the box. Over the stop line but not obstructing the box.

And hopefully not obstructing the pedestrian crossing because you couldn't get across the junction - there is a special place in hell for the morons that do that.

motco said:

You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. Lifted from TfL advice.

At that junction you are not prevented from turning right because of oncoming traffic, because you don't turn right within the yellow box. The yellow box precedes an unboxed length of single carriageway, at then end of which is a set of traffic lights, so you are going straight across the yellow box so the turn right rule wouldn't apply.

Google maps shows several cars stopped in the yellow box who could expect tickets - https://goo.gl/maps/uKvFs6qjFYJQsYKS7

If you thought you were going to be caught in the yellow box, then perhaps you could stop on the bit between the two yellow boxes in the middle of the road!