Private car sale Can a buyer claim repair costs later?
Discussion
I've had a look around online, and also searched on here but was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience of this.
I sold a 58 plate Focus privately on 30th June, it was only advertised on ebay as a classified advert - no options to bid or buy it now. The advert was very in depth, where I listed the 114k mileage, an overview of the condition of it plus a few negative points such as grazing on the wheels, some light interior wear and a few dings around the body. I listed it as just having had an oil service, with a major service due in 12k. Advert clearly states any inspection is fine, but no warranty or refunds. The only way he would have found the car for sale was via my ebay advert, so I presume that he read the spec and text.
Buyer came, had a good look around it. Took it for a test drive, within half a mile he had noted:
1) Turbo is a bit loud.
2) Odd knock from rear of car.
My replies verbally were:
1) The turbo has been loud since we purchased it 4 years previous, and there are receipts present in the history when the engine light came on for inspection. It didn't require changing and after inspection and reset the light never came on again. He replied "ok".
2) I had indeed heard this knock, but as it was my other halves car I hadn't been able to get it checked and thus didn't know what it was. It sounded quite high up like a boot trim or something, but as i'm not a mechanic can't confirm. Again he replied Ok - i'm a home mechanic and dabble a bit myself.
After this I said "loads of diesel in it, drive as far as you want" he declined and just did about another mile back to my home. When we got back I showed him the service history, and pointed out a large bill for a couple of injectors and fitting, plus glow plugs due to a misfire - this was about 4k miles previous. At this point I also reiterated that the next service was a large one including cam belt. I'm aware that I didn't have to say this, but I did as nowt to hide.
Said he wanted it, what can I do on price so i knocked 150 quid off due to the next service being a large one. Sale agreed, and I said "look, no warranty on this - its sold as you've inspected here today". He paid, and took the car. No reciept, as its a private sale they aren't worth anything anyway.
Then, late last week I get a text message saying that the turbo had failed, that it had a misfire from the day after he purchased it. The rear knock was a damaged anti roll bar arm. Turbo had set him back £700, plus £150 for the roll bar and was awaiting the bill for misfire as it needs 3 injectors. He was annoyed and wanted to know what I would do about it.
Now it's been 7 weeks, and I have no idea how that has been driven since. Also I pointed out that I didn't have a crystal ball, and that if a misfire appeared the following day why didn't he call me? The two points above, although I didn't record it he has acknowledged via text that I did say that, but is insisting that i'm liable.
His main argument seems to be that I should have had the car full inspected prior to sale and that what I have sold is not fit for purpose.
He has now text saying that unless we come to "an arrangement where I cover costs" that he will send a 14 day letter demanding payment, if I fail to pay he'll issue civil court proceedings.
I've gone back that I understand a sellers rights, The only legal terms that cover a private sale contract are:
The seller must have the right to sell the car. - I did
The vehicle should match the description given by the seller. It did, and I answered his questions honestly when he prompted on the two points above.
The car must be roadworthy – it is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car and an MOT certificate from a test several months ago is no guarantee that the car is roadworthy today. Totally roadworthy, a turbo fail and misfire isn't un-roadworthy.
I've also said back to him that I don't know how he's driven it, for all I know it's been on the limiter everywhere for the last 7 weeks. And also, why didn't he call me straight away the following day about the supposed misfire? He avoids that question.
I wish I had recorded the conversations in the car, but had no reason to think that i'd need to - but he has, as I mention above, acknowledged what I said in text.
Now whilst I empathise with him, how can I be responsible for this? Has he got a chance with this in court? My concern is that he has the car history now so I can't prove what was handed over, and also he keeps mentioning fit for purpose. It's like he's expecting me to cover maintenance costs for something that I could not have foreseen.
It also appears that he thinks he has the same rights as if he was buying from a trader, and keeps banging on that I should have had an "intensive inspection" done before selling. That inspection would not have flagged up a bloody imminent turbo or injector failure.
I can see that I'm going to have to pay for legal advice on this, but as first sentence was just wondering if anyone else had been in a similar situation.
Gutted for the guy, but still - 7 weeks later.
I sold a 58 plate Focus privately on 30th June, it was only advertised on ebay as a classified advert - no options to bid or buy it now. The advert was very in depth, where I listed the 114k mileage, an overview of the condition of it plus a few negative points such as grazing on the wheels, some light interior wear and a few dings around the body. I listed it as just having had an oil service, with a major service due in 12k. Advert clearly states any inspection is fine, but no warranty or refunds. The only way he would have found the car for sale was via my ebay advert, so I presume that he read the spec and text.
Buyer came, had a good look around it. Took it for a test drive, within half a mile he had noted:
1) Turbo is a bit loud.
2) Odd knock from rear of car.
My replies verbally were:
1) The turbo has been loud since we purchased it 4 years previous, and there are receipts present in the history when the engine light came on for inspection. It didn't require changing and after inspection and reset the light never came on again. He replied "ok".
2) I had indeed heard this knock, but as it was my other halves car I hadn't been able to get it checked and thus didn't know what it was. It sounded quite high up like a boot trim or something, but as i'm not a mechanic can't confirm. Again he replied Ok - i'm a home mechanic and dabble a bit myself.
After this I said "loads of diesel in it, drive as far as you want" he declined and just did about another mile back to my home. When we got back I showed him the service history, and pointed out a large bill for a couple of injectors and fitting, plus glow plugs due to a misfire - this was about 4k miles previous. At this point I also reiterated that the next service was a large one including cam belt. I'm aware that I didn't have to say this, but I did as nowt to hide.
Said he wanted it, what can I do on price so i knocked 150 quid off due to the next service being a large one. Sale agreed, and I said "look, no warranty on this - its sold as you've inspected here today". He paid, and took the car. No reciept, as its a private sale they aren't worth anything anyway.
Then, late last week I get a text message saying that the turbo had failed, that it had a misfire from the day after he purchased it. The rear knock was a damaged anti roll bar arm. Turbo had set him back £700, plus £150 for the roll bar and was awaiting the bill for misfire as it needs 3 injectors. He was annoyed and wanted to know what I would do about it.
Now it's been 7 weeks, and I have no idea how that has been driven since. Also I pointed out that I didn't have a crystal ball, and that if a misfire appeared the following day why didn't he call me? The two points above, although I didn't record it he has acknowledged via text that I did say that, but is insisting that i'm liable.
His main argument seems to be that I should have had the car full inspected prior to sale and that what I have sold is not fit for purpose.
He has now text saying that unless we come to "an arrangement where I cover costs" that he will send a 14 day letter demanding payment, if I fail to pay he'll issue civil court proceedings.
I've gone back that I understand a sellers rights, The only legal terms that cover a private sale contract are:
The seller must have the right to sell the car. - I did
The vehicle should match the description given by the seller. It did, and I answered his questions honestly when he prompted on the two points above.
The car must be roadworthy – it is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car and an MOT certificate from a test several months ago is no guarantee that the car is roadworthy today. Totally roadworthy, a turbo fail and misfire isn't un-roadworthy.
I've also said back to him that I don't know how he's driven it, for all I know it's been on the limiter everywhere for the last 7 weeks. And also, why didn't he call me straight away the following day about the supposed misfire? He avoids that question.
I wish I had recorded the conversations in the car, but had no reason to think that i'd need to - but he has, as I mention above, acknowledged what I said in text.
Now whilst I empathise with him, how can I be responsible for this? Has he got a chance with this in court? My concern is that he has the car history now so I can't prove what was handed over, and also he keeps mentioning fit for purpose. It's like he's expecting me to cover maintenance costs for something that I could not have foreseen.
It also appears that he thinks he has the same rights as if he was buying from a trader, and keeps banging on that I should have had an "intensive inspection" done before selling. That inspection would not have flagged up a bloody imminent turbo or injector failure.
I can see that I'm going to have to pay for legal advice on this, but as first sentence was just wondering if anyone else had been in a similar situation.
Gutted for the guy, but still - 7 weeks later.
k off.Thanks guys, I empathise with him and would hate to be in his shoes - i'm not a shady seller though, my adverts are always really clear and I take time point out all dings and defects when inspected. I could hardly open the turbo up and show him inside it though.
I also found the three injector comment odd, that wouldn't misfire - it wouldn't run on one alone. And as said, if it misfired the following day he should have contacted me straight away - even without needing to i'd have sorted that as one day later is bad.
I'm expecting a civil court letter, so i'll update as and when it happens.
I also found the three injector comment odd, that wouldn't misfire - it wouldn't run on one alone. And as said, if it misfired the following day he should have contacted me straight away - even without needing to i'd have sorted that as one day later is bad.
I'm expecting a civil court letter, so i'll update as and when it happens.
sortedcossie said:
Thanks guys, I empathise with him and would hate to be in his shoes - i'm not a shady seller though, my adverts are always really clear and I take time point out all dings and defects when inspected. I could hardly open the turbo up and show him inside it though.
I also found the three injector comment odd, that wouldn't misfire - it wouldn't run on one alone. And as said, if it misfired the following day he should have contacted me straight away - even without needing to i'd have sorted that as one day later is bad.
I'm expecting a civil court letter, so i'll update as and when it happens.
If you do receive a claim form, don't ignore it. You will need to respond.I also found the three injector comment odd, that wouldn't misfire - it wouldn't run on one alone. And as said, if it misfired the following day he should have contacted me straight away - even without needing to i'd have sorted that as one day later is bad.
I'm expecting a civil court letter, so i'll update as and when it happens.
sortedcossie said:
Trevor555 said:
I can only guess that he thinks you are a dealer/trader???
Was the car registered in your name?
Yep, my full name at my home address which is where he viewed it.Was the car registered in your name?
Nothing to stop him going the court route, you'll just have to go along and explain everything to the judge.
It was your car, private sale, no promises made, ran fine when he drove off, didn't hear a thing for 7 weeks.
When these stories appear the complainer always seems to do post sale communication via text. People aren't even man enough to call you up and have a reasonable conversation, just text random demands.
Not that I believe anything they'd have to say is reasonable, but obviously they do.
Pathetic.
Not that I believe anything they'd have to say is reasonable, but obviously they do.
Pathetic.
There are numerous threds on this subject - do a search. There's a wiki to start you off with a couple:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
sortedcossie said:
i'm not a shady seller though, my adverts are always really clear and I take time point out all dings and defects when inspected. I could hardly open the turbo up and show him inside it though.
Your adverts? So you are a dealer then? Or someone could assume you are if your buying and selling a few cars.megaphone said:
sortedcossie said:
i'm not a shady seller though, my adverts are always really clear and I take time point out all dings and defects when inspected. I could hardly open the turbo up and show him inside it though.
Your adverts? So you are a dealer then? Or someone could assume you are if your buying and selling a few cars.If buyer googles your phone number and several adverts come up he could try to convince the judge you're a dealer.
But as you've said you owned that car for 4 years I don't think the judge would buy into it.
Send him this:
The vehicle was bought as seen, you test drove the car and accepted any and all faults and I am not a Mechanic and neither are you. The law is clear that second hand sales from private buyers do not come with any warranty given or implied and as such I do not have to pay anything to repair what is now your car. Further contact from yourself will be considered harassment and should you wish to issue civil court proceedings I will be happy to see you in court. Where I'll win. And you'll likely be made to pay my expenses.
The vehicle was bought as seen, you test drove the car and accepted any and all faults and I am not a Mechanic and neither are you. The law is clear that second hand sales from private buyers do not come with any warranty given or implied and as such I do not have to pay anything to repair what is now your car. Further contact from yourself will be considered harassment and should you wish to issue civil court proceedings I will be happy to see you in court. Where I'll win. And you'll likely be made to pay my expenses.
I must admit, in your description of the sale I assumed you were a dealer. The fact that your advert stated 'no warranty' and you said that no receipt was given 'because it's a private sale' seemed odd.
When I sell my private cars, it's never occurred to me to put 'no warranty' in the advert.
When I sell my private cars, it's never occurred to me to put 'no warranty' in the advert.
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