Dilapidation question.

[C2Red]

Not sure if this needs to go here, or the homes section; but here goes.

I’m a LPOA on my mother’s property, she’s now in care.
Our old family home she rents out, I’ve terminated the lease on this, because we need the monies for her care; £5k/ gets eaten quickly in the care game.

So, background done, now my question

It was a managed property, which to me is an adequate oxymoron, when I visited the house it is in quite a state.
I had a builder give me a quote to rectify the issues, and bring it back to pre-rental condition.

The managing agent first tried to pull the betterment trick, which I said it wasn’t; clearly isn’t.
But he now wants us to wait until the time the tennant leaves and the conditions survey is carried out.
My opinion on that is that as the managing agent has been lax at best, they should also be liable.

Thoughts on the best way forward are appreciated

[toon10]

Following as I'm in exactly the same position. Good luck OP.

[Mr Pointy]

Are the issues more than just fair wear & tear? A tenant isn't obliged to vacate a property in exactly the same condition as it was when they first arrived: you have to allow for fair wear & tear If the carpet's 15 years old you don't get a new carpet. (Assuming this is a domestic let of a family home).

[matjk]

The managing agent wont take any responsibility at all, it will absolutely be it their Ts&Cs . There is a slim chance you will get the property back in the same condition (very slim) if the tenant fixes the house up. Might also be asking for a copy of any correspondence the managing agent sent your mum, they may have asked permission to fix things like minor leaks etc and if they had no authorization it wont have been done.

[Red Devil]

OP, for clarity, are you trying to get the full refurb cost withheld from the tenant's deposit?

C2Red said:

The managing agent first tried to pull the betterment trick, which I said it wasn’t; clearly isn’t.

It is not a trick. As has already been pointed out, fair wear and tear must be taken into consideration

C2Red said:

But he now wants us to wait until the time the tennant leaves and the conditions survey is carried out.

I speak from having been on both sides of the fence.
It's all too easy to miss something if the tenant still has all their possessions in situ.
Ideally it should be on the last day of the tenancy agreement when everything is in the removal truck or elsewhere.

C2Red said:

My opinion on that is that as the managing agent has been lax at best, they should also be liable.

You may find these of interest btw
https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/letting-ag...
http://pmslettings.co.uk/property-inspection-often...

What reports have you been receiving and how often? What did they say?

No disrespect intended, but your post suggests that you are an 'amateur landlord' (i.e. you do not have a property portfolio).
You may be fully justified in your criticism of the agent. Otoh you may have unrealistic expectations.

[C2Red]

Red Devil said:

OP, for clarity, are you trying to get the full refurb cost withheld from the tenant's deposit?

C2Red said:

The managing agent first tried to pull the betterment trick, which I said it wasn’t; clearly isn’t.

It is not a trick. As has already been pointed out, fair wear and tear must be taken into consideration

C2Red said:

But he now wants us to wait until the time the tennant leaves and the conditions survey is carried out.

I speak from having been on both sides of the fence.
It's all too easy to miss something if the tenant still has all their possessions in situ.
Ideally it should be on the last day of the tenancy agreement when everything is in the removal truck or elsewhere.

C2Red said:

My opinion on that is that as the managing agent has been lax at best, they should also be liable.

You may find these of interest btw
https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/letting-ag...
http://pmslettings.co.uk/property-inspection-often...

What reports have you been receiving and how often? What did they say?

No disrespect intended, but your post suggests that you are an 'amateur landlord' (i.e. you do not have a property portfolio).
You may be fully justified in your criticism of the agent. Otoh you may have unrealistic expectations.

Difficult for me in reality, however amateur I maybe, it’s based on my dealings with dilapidation in my past role as a FM, and looking to see if that translates into the normal world.
I’m looking to recoup full costs, as I believe the MA has not been doing their paid for role responsibly; for example I asked for the last 6 years of records of visits so I could take an informed view of the justification for £200/month, after all it’s a managed property, not drop the tenant in take the cash and do sod all..
Unrealistic, perhaps, but you haven’t seen what I did, and I fail to understand how so much damage etc can be missed.
It’s a simple case of needing the best return I can get, so mum remains cared for in a decent environment, emotional context; yes but it matters to me we do the best, and seeing how the MA has just turned up and taken the money is a tad frustrating

[anonymous-user]

C2Red said:

Red Devil said:

OP, for clarity, are you trying to get the full refurb cost withheld from the tenant's deposit?

C2Red said:

The managing agent first tried to pull the betterment trick, which I said it wasn’t; clearly isn’t.

It is not a trick. As has already been pointed out, fair wear and tear must be taken into consideration

C2Red said:

But he now wants us to wait until the time the tennant leaves and the conditions survey is carried out.

I speak from having been on both sides of the fence.
It's all too easy to miss something if the tenant still has all their possessions in situ.
Ideally it should be on the last day of the tenancy agreement when everything is in the removal truck or elsewhere.

C2Red said:

My opinion on that is that as the managing agent has been lax at best, they should also be liable.

You may find these of interest btw
https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/letting-ag...
http://pmslettings.co.uk/property-inspection-often...

What reports have you been receiving and how often? What did they say?

No disrespect intended, but your post suggests that you are an 'amateur landlord' (i.e. you do not have a property portfolio).
You may be fully justified in your criticism of the agent. Otoh you may have unrealistic expectations.

Difficult for me in reality, however amateur I maybe, it’s based on my dealings with dilapidation in my past role as a FM, and looking to see if that translates into the normal world.
I’m looking to recoup full costs, as I believe the MA has not been doing their paid for role responsibly; for example I asked for the last 6 years of records of visits so I could take an informed view of the justification for £200/month, after all it’s a managed property, not drop the tenant in take the cash and do sod all..
Unrealistic, perhaps, but you haven’t seen what I did, and I fail to understand how so much damage etc can be missed.
It’s a simple case of needing the best return I can get, so mum remains cared for in a decent environment, emotional context; yes but it matters to me we do the best, and seeing how the MA has just turned up and taken the money is a tad frustrating

Did they not send you copies of the reports following inspections? We get them every 6 months, via email and snail mail

[ClaphamGT3]

C2Red said:

Red Devil said:

OP, for clarity, are you trying to get the full refurb cost withheld from the tenant's deposit?

C2Red said:

The managing agent first tried to pull the betterment trick, which I said it wasn’t; clearly isn’t.

It is not a trick. As has already been pointed out, fair wear and tear must be taken into consideration

C2Red said:

But he now wants us to wait until the time the tennant leaves and the conditions survey is carried out.

I speak from having been on both sides of the fence.
It's all too easy to miss something if the tenant still has all their possessions in situ.
Ideally it should be on the last day of the tenancy agreement when everything is in the removal truck or elsewhere.

C2Red said:

My opinion on that is that as the managing agent has been lax at best, they should also be liable.

You may find these of interest btw
https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/forum/letting-ag...
http://pmslettings.co.uk/property-inspection-often...

What reports have you been receiving and how often? What did they say?

No disrespect intended, but your post suggests that you are an 'amateur landlord' (i.e. you do not have a property portfolio).
You may be fully justified in your criticism of the agent. Otoh you may have unrealistic expectations.

Difficult for me in reality, however amateur I maybe, it’s based on my dealings with dilapidation in my past role as a FM, and looking to see if that translates into the normal world.
I’m looking to recoup full costs, as I believe the MA has not been doing their paid for role responsibly; for example I asked for the last 6 years of records of visits so I could take an informed view of the justification for £200/month, after all it’s a managed property, not drop the tenant in take the cash and do sod all..
Unrealistic, perhaps, but you haven’t seen what I did, and I fail to understand how so much damage etc can be missed.
It’s a simple case of needing the best return I can get, so mum remains cared for in a decent environment, emotional context; yes but it matters to me we do the best, and seeing how the MA has just turned up and taken the money is a tad frustrating

This is where the difficulty is going to come. Obligations on residential and commercial tenants can be significantly different and a residential landlord does not have the same protections and rights as a commercial landlord with an FRI lease. It is important that you do not transpose expectations between these two different situations.

[Alucidnation]

Mr Pointy said:

A tenant isn't obliged to vacate a property in exactly the same condition as it was when they first arrived.

Depends if they want to lose their deposit.

[Mr Pointy]

Alucidnation said:

Mr Pointy said:

A tenant isn't obliged to vacate a property in exactly the same condition as it was when they first arrived.

Depends if they want to lose their deposit.

Landlord refurbishes house. Fits new carpets.

Tenant moves in. Stays for 10 years. Carpets get worn. Paintwork gets shabby.

Tenant does not have to pay for new carpets or repainting. Tenant gets deposit back.

[Alucidnation]

Depends on the severity of the dilapidations and what is stipulated in the tenancy agreement.

[C2Red]

Thanks for everyone’s input, it does make rather depressing reading if I’m perfectly honest, a bit one sided.
Hey ho, onwards we go....

I’ll explore a bit more and then it’ll be time to decide what course of action I’m actually going to have confidence in taking

Thanks

[rgf100]

It'd be easier to comment if you explained what the problems are.

If no work had been done for 15 years and the place needs new furniture, carpets and a repaint - that's as expected and it isn't the agents job to chase you up about things getting old. You know they're getting old.

If the agent has failed to spot and act on unexpected issues - damp from a dodgy gutter, or a neighbor's tree that's wrecked your fence, different matter.

[C2Red]

rgf100 said:

It'd be easier to comment if you explained what the problems are.

If no work had been done for 15 years and the place needs new furniture, carpets and a repaint - that's as expected and it isn't the agents job to chase you up about things getting old. You know they're getting old.

If the agent has failed to spot and act on unexpected issues - damp from a dodgy gutter, or a neighbor's tree that's wrecked your fence, different matter.

Thank you.

The tenant has by all accounts been there 5 years, remember I’m just picking all of this up, I’ve no history at all in this scenario. Hence asking pertinent questions for me to understand how to move forward

What’s the problem, well is it fair wear and tear to expect threadbare carpet, is it fair wear and tear the tenant breaks the non-pet policy, has a 4th Bedroom added, has damaged paintwork beyond belief, has not kept to the tenancy agreement with regards the garden, or what remember once being a garden and so it goes in; in my eyes the house looks like a train wreck.
What were we paying the managing agent 25% of the income for if they don’t alert you to any of this.
I asked for the reports from the last 6 years to see what they had inspected and had done, I received one, the very last one that made no mention of the absolute shambles our house had become
I find it infuriating to think people live like tramps just because it isn’t their property, taking the juice out of the fact there’s likely to be little recourse

[surveyor]

C2Red said:

Thank you.

The tenant has by all accounts been there 5 years, remember I’m just picking all of this up, I’ve no history at all in this scenario. Hence asking pertinent questions for me to understand how to move forward

What’s the problem, well is it fair wear and tear to expect threadbare carpet, is it fair wear and tear the tenant breaks the non-pet policy, has a 4th Bedroom added, has damaged paintwork beyond belief, has not kept to the tenancy agreement with regards the garden, or what remember once being a garden and so it goes in; in my eyes the house looks like a train wreck.
What were we paying the managing agent 25% of the income for if they don’t alert you to any of this.
I asked for the reports from the last 6 years to see what they had inspected and had done, I received one, the very last one that made no mention of the absolute shambles our house had become
I find it infuriating to think people live like tramps just because it isn’t their property, taking the juice out of the fact there’s likely to be little recourse

Carpet - threadbare. Arguably is absolutely LL responsibility. Difficult to see what a tenant can have done differently other than walk on it?
Pet policy. Annoying, and if they are leaving nothing more you can do. If there is damage beyond wear and tear then you may be able to look at the deposit.
Added a 4th bedroom... - odd. How? Done well or badly? Added to value of house or reduced it? Did your mum give consent?
Paintwork. 5 years on is probably ready for a redecoration.. Fair wear and tear?
Garden? have to wait and see. Perhaps they will do a good tidy up.

DO you have a schedule of condition showing the condition when they moved in?

As said residential protection very different to the commercial world. I used to manage a branch network, and they got really pissed off to find as tenants they were responsible for boilers etc.

[hutchst]

"Beyond belief" is not a term that most landlords on here would recognise.

There is no right to inspect, it is at the discretion of the tenant. Landlord (or his agent) only has a right of entry for genuine emergencies.

I would expect significant redecoration after 5 years. Was it 100% newly redecorated when the tenant moved in?

Is the tenant's deposit protected?

Difficult to see any claim against the agent here, and the deposit protector will adjudicate on any claims you think you have against the tenant.

Get a proper check-out inspection with photographs and meter readings on the last day of the tenancy and take it from there.

[C2Red]

Thanks all, it’s not the news I’d hoped for. But I need to be realistic; so thank you all for your input and guidance, it’s very much appreciated.

I’ll wait for the final output docs, evaluate against the tenant agreement, and then I will know what I can expect thanks to your help

Thanks

[rgf100]

Yeah, I'd be annoyed about a lot of that. Extra bedroom is mad, how was that done? Garden should have been maintained. Damaged paintwork beyond normal wear and tear isn't on, but if it would have needed repainted by now anyway...

But then keeping pets - what's your actual loss? Threadbare carpets - how old are they?

[Kuji]

surveyor said:

C2Red said:

Thank you.

The tenant has by all accounts been there 5 years, remember I’m just picking all of this up, I’ve no history at all in this scenario. Hence asking pertinent questions for me to understand how to move forward

What’s the problem, well is it fair wear and tear to expect threadbare carpet, is it fair wear and tear the tenant breaks the non-pet policy, has a 4th Bedroom added, has damaged paintwork beyond belief, has not kept to the tenancy agreement with regards the garden, or what remember once being a garden and so it goes in; in my eyes the house looks like a train wreck.
What were we paying the managing agent 25% of the income for if they don’t alert you to any of this.
I asked for the reports from the last 6 years to see what they had inspected and had done, I received one, the very last one that made no mention of the absolute shambles our house had become
I find it infuriating to think people live like tramps just because it isn’t their property, taking the juice out of the fact there’s likely to be little recourse

Carpet - threadbare. Arguably is absolutely LL responsibility. Difficult to see what a tenant can have done differently other than walk on it?
Pet policy. Annoying, and if they are leaving nothing more you can do. If there is damage beyond wear and tear then you may be able to look at the deposit.
Added a 4th bedroom... - odd. How? Done well or badly? Added to value of house or reduced it? Did your mum give consent?
Paintwork. 5 years on is probably ready for a redecoration.. Fair wear and tear?
Garden? have to wait and see. Perhaps they will do a good tidy up.

DO you have a schedule of condition showing the condition when they moved in?

As said residential protection very different to the commercial world. I used to manage a branch network, and they got really pissed off to find as tenants they were responsible for boilers etc.

Clearly, unlike yourself not all homeowners completely refurbish the entire houses' paintwork every 5 years.
(Your own house being the one true exception).


Unless, you are just trying to sweep more st under your already threadbare carpet,??

[alfie2244]

Was there a fully detailed going in property condition report with photos etc co-signed by the tenants? If not I find it hard to see how you will hold the tenant responsible for anything untoward, especially if they have been in there for 5 years unless you can prove it was 100% decorated and new carpets etc when they moved in.