Ridiculous bus lane fines, Cardiff
Discussion
On returning from holiday yesterday I found two letters waiting for me from Cardiff County Council. Opening them I find two 'Notice of Enforcement' letters claiming I owe money for driving in two bus lanes back in April of this year.
I live in Somerset and occasionally visit my elderly father in Cardiff and so am unfamiliar with the roads and bus lanes there, but I guess it's possible I could have accidentally entered the bus lanes while taking my father to Cardiff Bay for breakfast on Sunday morning. Six months after the event I can't recall for sure.
These are the first notices I have received and the fee is £113 for each offence to which they have added an additional £75 'compliance stage fee', so £188 x 2 = £376 for accidentally driving in two bus lanes! This seems absurd to me and also the addition of a compliance stage fee suggests they are under the impression that the initial fee of £113 for each offence had already been issued to me though I have received nothing. If I don't pay up, the threat is sending an 'enforcement agent' to my address to collect goods in lieu of payment. Since I live in a shared house I don't really want the home owner being hassled on my account.
The notices state that 'a Warrant of Control has been issued to the City of Cardiff Council by the Traffic Enforcement Centre in respect of a Penalty Charge Notice issued on 22/04/2019 12:01:14 etc. etc'.
Currently not sure whether to:
i) Pay up - but the fees seem extortionate to me.
ii) Contest the amount, or at least the enforcement fees, on the basis that I've not heard anything from them previously.
iii) Ignore the letters and let them do their worst.
Does anyone have any legal understanding of the import of these 'Notices of Enforcement' as they are a first for me and seem mighty steep compared to, say, the cost of a speeding offence! Having just returned from holiday the prospect of shelling out nearly £400 for apparently trivial driving 'offences' doesn't appeal to me much!
I live in Somerset and occasionally visit my elderly father in Cardiff and so am unfamiliar with the roads and bus lanes there, but I guess it's possible I could have accidentally entered the bus lanes while taking my father to Cardiff Bay for breakfast on Sunday morning. Six months after the event I can't recall for sure.
These are the first notices I have received and the fee is £113 for each offence to which they have added an additional £75 'compliance stage fee', so £188 x 2 = £376 for accidentally driving in two bus lanes! This seems absurd to me and also the addition of a compliance stage fee suggests they are under the impression that the initial fee of £113 for each offence had already been issued to me though I have received nothing. If I don't pay up, the threat is sending an 'enforcement agent' to my address to collect goods in lieu of payment. Since I live in a shared house I don't really want the home owner being hassled on my account.
The notices state that 'a Warrant of Control has been issued to the City of Cardiff Council by the Traffic Enforcement Centre in respect of a Penalty Charge Notice issued on 22/04/2019 12:01:14 etc. etc'.
Currently not sure whether to:
i) Pay up - but the fees seem extortionate to me.
ii) Contest the amount, or at least the enforcement fees, on the basis that I've not heard anything from them previously.
iii) Ignore the letters and let them do their worst.
Does anyone have any legal understanding of the import of these 'Notices of Enforcement' as they are a first for me and seem mighty steep compared to, say, the cost of a speeding offence! Having just returned from holiday the prospect of shelling out nearly £400 for apparently trivial driving 'offences' doesn't appeal to me much!
BGarside said:
am unfamiliar with the roads and bus lanes there
Not a promising start. Don't ignore the letters. If they state the time and location of the infraction, check the bus lane's hours of operation against google streetview. Contact the council and find out how the charge has got to this level, and what it started at. Point out that you did not receive any prior letters. Ask if they have photographic evidence (the answer is almost certainly yes) and if so ask them to supply a copy. Ask for details of the appeal process (incl venue).
If you're then satisfied it's a fair cop and they can prove it, try to negotiate a reduction to take account the fact that you didn't get what you think were the initial letters, but are willing to pay now on receipt of the first notification you've had. If that doesn't work toss up in your head whether the value of your time is worth an appeal.
1 - if you have the means and inclination, they by all means pay up. It goes away instantly.
2 - you do have grounds to reset the process, I'll explain below.
3- Don't, just don't! - they have a lot of clout behind them, and an attendance fee by Newlyns or JBW will add another £180 ish on to the charge...
The original Notice to Owner appears not have been received for whatever reason - have you changed addresses recently, or is it a lease car?
Either way, you need to act now to reset the process - I've copied and pasted this from something I send to customers fairly regularly.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/traffic-...
Download the PE2 and PE3 form
These are the forms to complete in order to “make the bailiffs go away” – they both need to be countersigned by the courts or a solicitor, then sent to the Traffic Enforcement Centre to cancel the enforcement process.
The PE3 gives you some limited options for appeal - yours being that you never received the original correspondance, and a brief explanation why - wrong address, lease car, moved whatever - be truthful, and provide copies of any evidence if you can.
The PE2 is explaining why the PE3 form is later than the 28 days allowed from when an Order of Recovery is issued. Again, if the wrong address is somewhere down the line, you will never have received anything.
The enforcement agents will have done an address verification upon receipt of the warrant - that's why this document has reached you, and the previous ones haven't - the issuing authorities just go with the DVLA registered keeper details.
(If it was a parking fine (double yellows, red route etc) then it needs to be applied for on a TE7 & TE9 form, but the same process - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te...
Once the forms are completed and signed, they should be emailed to both the enforcement agents and tec@justice.gov.uk using the penalty number and registration as the subject line. TEC will then process these with 2 working days, but more often than not it is within a few hours of receipt.
Once these are rubber stamped by the TEC in Northampton, the Enforcement agents will be stood down, the penalty will default back to the original level (without the 14 day early discount offer sadly!) you then get the chance to pay it, or take it to tribunal.
The tribunal option is a right faff though.
2 - you do have grounds to reset the process, I'll explain below.
3- Don't, just don't! - they have a lot of clout behind them, and an attendance fee by Newlyns or JBW will add another £180 ish on to the charge...
The original Notice to Owner appears not have been received for whatever reason - have you changed addresses recently, or is it a lease car?
Either way, you need to act now to reset the process - I've copied and pasted this from something I send to customers fairly regularly.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/traffic-...
Download the PE2 and PE3 form
These are the forms to complete in order to “make the bailiffs go away” – they both need to be countersigned by the courts or a solicitor, then sent to the Traffic Enforcement Centre to cancel the enforcement process.
The PE3 gives you some limited options for appeal - yours being that you never received the original correspondance, and a brief explanation why - wrong address, lease car, moved whatever - be truthful, and provide copies of any evidence if you can.
The PE2 is explaining why the PE3 form is later than the 28 days allowed from when an Order of Recovery is issued. Again, if the wrong address is somewhere down the line, you will never have received anything.
The enforcement agents will have done an address verification upon receipt of the warrant - that's why this document has reached you, and the previous ones haven't - the issuing authorities just go with the DVLA registered keeper details.
(If it was a parking fine (double yellows, red route etc) then it needs to be applied for on a TE7 & TE9 form, but the same process - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te...
Once the forms are completed and signed, they should be emailed to both the enforcement agents and tec@justice.gov.uk using the penalty number and registration as the subject line. TEC will then process these with 2 working days, but more often than not it is within a few hours of receipt.
Once these are rubber stamped by the TEC in Northampton, the Enforcement agents will be stood down, the penalty will default back to the original level (without the 14 day early discount offer sadly!) you then get the chance to pay it, or take it to tribunal.
The tribunal option is a right faff though.
Edited by S11Steve on Monday 28th October 15:09
Give this a try. Once you are ready to pay the fine, pay by cheque and add a penny.
The system will say money received and that’s that. Cheque goes to a different office to be cashed. It can’t be cashed as the system can’t give change. Cheque goes in the bin.
Give it a try, you will only lose an extra penny if it’s twaddle
The system will say money received and that’s that. Cheque goes to a different office to be cashed. It can’t be cashed as the system can’t give change. Cheque goes in the bin.
Give it a try, you will only lose an extra penny if it’s twaddle
RobXjcoupe said:
Give this a try. Once you are ready to pay the fine, pay by cheque and add a penny.
The system will say money received and that’s that. Cheque goes to a different office to be cashed. It can’t be cashed as the system can’t give change. Cheque goes in the bin.
Give it a try, you will only lose an extra penny if it’s twaddle
They sent a 'Notice before Action' to an employer of mine years ago for £1!! They claimed I'd underpaid a fine! I hadn't!!The system will say money received and that’s that. Cheque goes to a different office to be cashed. It can’t be cashed as the system can’t give change. Cheque goes in the bin.
Give it a try, you will only lose an extra penny if it’s twaddle
Rather than contest it for a quid, I took the notice, and £1 in 1p pieces, to the local fines office and the girl behind the Glass looked at the Notice, looked at the pile of pennies and said, "We don't normally accept payment in pennies, but for that I will!"
Petty maybe, but they started it!!
S11Steve said:
Lots of useful stuff....
Thanks for that! Very useful. Looks like I'm going to have to act fast as they are only giving me until 30th to make payment. I guess the Court will charge for the signatures as well, and I will still have to pay the claimed debt of £113 per 'offence'. Edited by S11Steve on Monday 28th October 15:09
Really bugs me as the fee seems high and I don't make a habit of driving in bus lanes. In any case it was a quiet bank holiday Monday so not as if I was deliberately trying to avoid traffic jams!
BGarside said:
Thanks for that! Very useful. Looks like I'm going to have to act fast as they are only giving me until 30th to make payment. I guess the Court will charge for the signatures as well, and I will still have to pay the claimed debt of £113 per 'offence'.
Really bugs me as the fee seems high and I don't make a habit of driving in bus lanes. In any case it was a quiet bank holiday Monday so not as if I was deliberately trying to avoid traffic jams!
The court clerk will normally sign them for free, but that may be that we're regular visitors!Really bugs me as the fee seems high and I don't make a habit of driving in bus lanes. In any case it was a quiet bank holiday Monday so not as if I was deliberately trying to avoid traffic jams!
Our solicitor will also do them for £5+vat.
The standard penalty is £70,( or £35 if paid in 14 days)
The next step is a Charge Certificate and becomes £105 (a further 50% increase on the penalty).
When it is rubber stamped by the court for an order of recovery, another £7 (i think) court fee is added
Transferring to Enforcement agents adds another £75 fee.
And because you have two, it has doubled - but is is all the standard rate.
When you submit the forms though, it will revert back to £70 each, so not quite as painful as it currently stands.
If it is any consolation, the Low Emission Zone penalties are a whole other level of eye-watering - they start at £500, or £250 if paid early!
Not aimed at you specifically due to the circumstances, but this is why the advice is often given to deal with it sooner than later. These can esacalate quickly.
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