When is a car trader not a trader?
Discussion
Strange situation. My brother has bought a 2010 M3 on sunday from a chap, who solely owns a BMW repair specialist. The car has immediately thrown a fault (vanos). Now this is where it get blurry:
1. the car was sorned into the motor trade and not registered in his name
2. the sale took place on his motor trade premises (but on sunday night)
3. receipt is in his personal name, as he "sells about 6 cars a year on the side"
4. car was advertised privately on autotrader
where does my brother stand on this?
1. the car was sorned into the motor trade and not registered in his name
2. the sale took place on his motor trade premises (but on sunday night)
3. receipt is in his personal name, as he "sells about 6 cars a year on the side"
4. car was advertised privately on autotrader
where does my brother stand on this?
A trader trying to get out of his responsibilities under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. By trying to hide he is hoping you will accept his 'private sale' and private buyers have very little redress.
Report him to Trading Standards and if he advertises under AA Cars, or the Good Garage Scheme or other similar logo on his paperwork or home page, report him to them too. Oh and report him to Auto Trader too.
For advice contact Citizens Advice first who will record the complaint and forward directly to Trading Standards.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-mor...
As he is a trader you can reject the car within the first 30 days for a full refund. You have to prove the fault was there - which you obviously can. He must refund within 14 days.
If you want to keep the car, you can opt for him to repair it. He must do this without inconveniencing you and in reasonable time (no definition of what is reasonable but more than a week for a specialist would look poor). If the repair fails you can still reject the car but he may make a small charge for the additional miles you have put on it. But bear in mind any insurance costs of cancelling a policy and also cancelling the road tax.
In view of his devious sale, I'd be rejecting it outright. An email is considered proof of rejection but if he is going to be difficult, recorded delivery letter in case it later becomes legal. If he is a member of a trade association tell him to get advice as he's on dodgy ground here.
Report him to Trading Standards and if he advertises under AA Cars, or the Good Garage Scheme or other similar logo on his paperwork or home page, report him to them too. Oh and report him to Auto Trader too.
For advice contact Citizens Advice first who will record the complaint and forward directly to Trading Standards.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-mor...
As he is a trader you can reject the car within the first 30 days for a full refund. You have to prove the fault was there - which you obviously can. He must refund within 14 days.
If you want to keep the car, you can opt for him to repair it. He must do this without inconveniencing you and in reasonable time (no definition of what is reasonable but more than a week for a specialist would look poor). If the repair fails you can still reject the car but he may make a small charge for the additional miles you have put on it. But bear in mind any insurance costs of cancelling a policy and also cancelling the road tax.
In view of his devious sale, I'd be rejecting it outright. An email is considered proof of rejection but if he is going to be difficult, recorded delivery letter in case it later becomes legal. If he is a member of a trade association tell him to get advice as he's on dodgy ground here.
Edited by N7GTX on Monday 4th November 20:10
Not all of the posts so far are correct in practice.
Interestingly the OP fails to mention whether the buyer has reported the fault to the seller, and whether or not the seller has offered or refused a remedy.
If it's the worst case and the seller washes his hands of it then no amount of "running and telling a grown up" will automatically get you your money back. Short of going to court, winning a judgement, getting that judgement enforced and paid no amount of strongly worded emails shrouded in bar room lawyerisms are going to have any effect. During which time the buyer is without a car.
Since the seller is in the business of fixing broken BMWs it might be best to attempt to work with them for a solution, even if that means making a contribution.
But most importantly, has the seller been asked and what was the answer?
Interestingly the OP fails to mention whether the buyer has reported the fault to the seller, and whether or not the seller has offered or refused a remedy.
If it's the worst case and the seller washes his hands of it then no amount of "running and telling a grown up" will automatically get you your money back. Short of going to court, winning a judgement, getting that judgement enforced and paid no amount of strongly worded emails shrouded in bar room lawyerisms are going to have any effect. During which time the buyer is without a car.
Since the seller is in the business of fixing broken BMWs it might be best to attempt to work with them for a solution, even if that means making a contribution.
But most importantly, has the seller been asked and what was the answer?
Going to approach him tomorrow, but my brother is stressing as the receipt says sold as seen on it.
My view is similar to the above, that you can’t opt in and out of the motor trade.
But I’m also of the volition that he should just try and get the bloke to fix it
Luckily it’s a third car, so no big shakes on that feont
My view is similar to the above, that you can’t opt in and out of the motor trade.
But I’m also of the volition that he should just try and get the bloke to fix it
Luckily it’s a third car, so no big shakes on that feont
Insurancejon said:
Strange situation. My brother has bought a 2010 M3 on sunday from a chap, who solely owns a BMW repair specialist. The car has immediately thrown a fault (vanos). Now this is where it get blurry:
1. the car was sorned into the motor trade and not registered in his name
2. the sale took place on his motor trade premises (but on sunday night)
3. receipt is in his personal name, as he "sells about 6 cars a year on the side"
4. car was advertised privately on autotrader
where does my brother stand on this?
Also note I haven't heard anything about VANOS issues for an e9x M3 so believe it to be fairly rare. Is it high mileage?1. the car was sorned into the motor trade and not registered in his name
2. the sale took place on his motor trade premises (but on sunday night)
3. receipt is in his personal name, as he "sells about 6 cars a year on the side"
4. car was advertised privately on autotrader
where does my brother stand on this?
You can be a trader and sell you own cars privately, but 6 a year seems a bit much.
Last year i bought a car off a trader that wasn't advertised as private but he did tell me as soon as I phoned up that it was his car that he'd had for about 6 months and that he does this a couple of times a year. Initially it put me off especially as he'd only be able to take cash or bank transfer, but it was a good price so went for it, turned out to be the best car i've bought in years.
Last year i bought a car off a trader that wasn't advertised as private but he did tell me as soon as I phoned up that it was his car that he'd had for about 6 months and that he does this a couple of times a year. Initially it put me off especially as he'd only be able to take cash or bank transfer, but it was a good price so went for it, turned out to be the best car i've bought in years.
Wooda80 said:
Not all of the posts so far are correct in practice.
Interestingly the OP fails to mention whether the buyer has reported the fault to the seller, and whether or not the seller has offered or refused a remedy.
If it's the worst case and the seller washes his hands of it then no amount of "running and telling a grown up" will automatically get you your money back. Short of going to court, winning a judgement, getting that judgement enforced and paid no amount of strongly worded emails shrouded in bar room lawyerisms are going to have any effect. During which time the buyer is without a car.
Since the seller is in the business of fixing broken BMWs it might be best to attempt to work with them for a solution, even if that means making a contribution.
But most importantly, has the seller been asked and what was the answer?
This post is exactly why the CRA 2015 came into force. And in the penultimate sentence "even if that means making a contribution" is so far off the mark as to be ludicrous. Interestingly the OP fails to mention whether the buyer has reported the fault to the seller, and whether or not the seller has offered or refused a remedy.
If it's the worst case and the seller washes his hands of it then no amount of "running and telling a grown up" will automatically get you your money back. Short of going to court, winning a judgement, getting that judgement enforced and paid no amount of strongly worded emails shrouded in bar room lawyerisms are going to have any effect. During which time the buyer is without a car.
Since the seller is in the business of fixing broken BMWs it might be best to attempt to work with them for a solution, even if that means making a contribution.
But most importantly, has the seller been asked and what was the answer?
The fact the seller is hiding his trader position tells you a lot about his intentions. If he was a responsible and respectable BMW specialist he would have sold it on company headed paper properly.
Of course he can try and ask for a repair but why would you? How can you trust the seller or the car? If you like the car by all means ask him to repair it at no cost whatsoever to you. If he says it was a private sale then, unless you want to follow the advice above whereby you pay for it all, you only have one choice and that is legal action. If you use the template letters on the Citizens Advice pages some people will back down, some wont. As this is a 3rd car it seems you are in a strong position to manage without its use should the legal route be the only way.
Incidentally, court procedures now state that conciliation should be attempted before issuing a summons. As said before, check his website or in the garage itself to see if he is a member of any organisations which will provide this service for free. He must comply with their rules but you are free to leave at any time. And if he refuses to give you details of any organisations, you can approach the National Conciliation Service for help too.
If I am buying a pre-owned car, the first question I ask is “how long have you owned the vehicle?”
If it’s less than 2-years, or selling on behalf of uncle, brother, friend etc. I move on.
If I am buying from a dealer then I want to test the drive the car during the daytime having researched their Company details online.
Anything suspicious, I look elsewhere, there are loads of cars for sale - enough to find a good one.
Final check is - if it looks too good to be true, then it probably will be.
If it’s less than 2-years, or selling on behalf of uncle, brother, friend etc. I move on.
If I am buying from a dealer then I want to test the drive the car during the daytime having researched their Company details online.
Anything suspicious, I look elsewhere, there are loads of cars for sale - enough to find a good one.
Final check is - if it looks too good to be true, then it probably will be.
so, our kid dropped the car back yesterday, as the guy has offered to repair (he did offer a refund less a deduction for extra owner)…..the problem is I couldn't make it and my brother is a bit of a pushover in situations like this.
I think once he gets it back he needs to make a decision on whether to keep it or sell it, but to be fair its intended purpose is to turn it into a track toy. So as long as it is fixed, then all good.
will update.
Thanks for all the responses so far guys
I think once he gets it back he needs to make a decision on whether to keep it or sell it, but to be fair its intended purpose is to turn it into a track toy. So as long as it is fixed, then all good.
will update.
Thanks for all the responses so far guys
rdjohn said:
If I am buying a pre-owned car, the first question I ask is “how long have you owned the vehicle?”
What possible difference does it make? When buying a car you take it on its merits not how many owners or asking how long someone has owned it.
You could be turning down a very good car and possibly better than the next one just because you don't like the fact the owners only had it 6 months..
A1VDY said:
rdjohn said:
If I am buying a pre-owned car, the first question I ask is “how long have you owned the vehicle?”
What possible difference does it make? When buying a car you take it on its merits not how many owners or asking how long someone has owned it.
You could be turning down a very good car and possibly better than the next one just because you don't like the fact the owners only had it 6 months..
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