Local help needed with PCN from Enfield

[Scrump]

My niece (makes change from a friend!) has received a PCN from Enfield council for performing a prohibited turn - no right turn.

This was in Conduit Lane/Montagu Road N18. Looking at the supplied video evidence and comparing it to google maps I think the turn is likely to have been from West bound on Conduit Lane into North bound Montagu Road.

Streetview shows a right turn lane for that turn but it is a few years old.
Anyone local who could possibly take a look and let me know why the council think a right turn at that junction is prohibited?

(no pics of the niece available)
TYIA

[anonymous-user]

Why not ask your niece what sign she saw, if any, or if she lives in the area suggest that she goes back to the relevant place and checks what sign she may have failed to see? If she missed a sign and made a banned turn she should probably chill out and pay up. There are however some Signage Wonks here who may be able to express views on whether the sign, if there was one, was a valid sign in accordance with the Great Big Boring Book of Signs.

NB: "I did not see the sign because it was obscured by some man in a van, or because I was on my phone, or because I was being kidnapped by Space Aliens" are generally thought not to be the best arguments.

[OMNIO]

Lots of folk on a local fb group complaining they've been caught out. Not been that way myself recently but apparently there's a big sign on the left saying "no right turn except busses" but the road markings contradict it from when right turn was allowed...

If the road marking is still there it might be worth an appeal?

[vaud]

OMNIO said:

Lots of folk on a local fb group complaining they've been caught out. Not been that way myself recently but apparently there's a big sign on the left saying "no right turn except busses" but the road markings contradict it from when right turn was allowed...

If the road marking is still there it might be worth an appeal?

Aren't arrows on roads advisory rather than compulsory (signs are compulsory)?

[Scrump]

My niece is not local (and neither am I) She doesn't recall seeing any no right turn signs, if she had she would have understood what she did wrong.
Not trying to get out of it if she made a mistake (which is likely), but trying to help her understand what she did wrong to avoid any future PCNs.

Omnio, Thanks for the info

[anonymous-user]

If there was a lawfully signposted ban on turning right, then what your niece did wrong is, I suggest, fairly simple to analyse.

[OMNIO]

Apparently they’ve been there since 30th October.

[The Li-ion King]

OMNIO said:

Apparently they’ve been there since 30th October.

They will have a camera mounted to a lamppost further back. They had closed the Angel Road flyover (re-doing metal joints and new Tarmac) on Eastbound section of North Circular Road (Tottenham-Chingford) so probably to ease traffic. Even though the 192 bus turns LEFT and would have no reason to turn right anyway She could have gone left onto Conduit Lane, and cut through the Tesco Extra just off the A1055 at Glover Drive, to head back towards the A406 near the IKEA

Edited by The Li-ion King on Monday 11th November 19:37

[anonymous-user]

Bang to rights on the basis of that pic, subject to any techie points that the signage wonks can supply.

[Earthdweller]

https://new.enfield.gov.uk/services/roads-and-tran...

Looks like this is the TMO .. I’d just check the dates on the PCN

It came into force on 17/10/19 .. I would not trust the LA not to enforce before it was an offence

Edited by Earthdweller on Monday 11th November 21:17

[jm doc]

Shouldn't there be lights on signs at night if they are compulsory?
Of course the offence may have been in daylight, but the question is still relevant.

[Scrump]

Thanks for the pics and info.
I have explained to her what she did wrong so hopefully no more PCNs.

Glad I didn’t hold my breath though as now she has received a PCN for entering a bus lane
This time she knows what she did, but in her own words it was just near the end and didn’t hold anyone up. Expensive lessons.

[Driver101]

Scrump said:

Thanks for the pics and info.
I have explained to her what she did wrong so hopefully no more PCNs.

Glad I didn’t hold my breath as now she has received a PCN for entering a bus lane
This time she knows what she did, but in her own words it was just near the end and didn’t hold anyone up. Expensive lessons.

The bus lane cameras are often conveniently placed right at the end of the bus lane.

I got caught using the last 50 yards of one. Queuing traffic at the roundabout to go straight ahead and I used the totally empty lane for the last 50 yards before it turned into a normal lane.

It's very sneaky, but there is no argument.

[matjk]

Driving in any major city is now like a complicated quiz , the prize for getting it right is you get to keep your money

[anonymous-user]

Easy quiz. Lots of clues. They are called signs.

[Red 4]

Breadvan72 said:

There are however some Signage Wonks here who may be able to express views on whether the sign, if there was one, was a valid sign in accordance with the Great Big Boring Book of Signs.

.

Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (75th squazillion edition).

Go back.

Photograph sign and junction.

Study great big boring book of signs and ensure signage conforms.

Many councils get it wrong.

If signage does not conform any "fine" is unenforceable.

It happens more often than you might think.

[Chrisgr31]

I am slightly puzzled. Surely those big no right turn signs were visible on the supplied video? If they were only put up on the 30th October and your nieces offense predates that, what was there before?

Yesterday I received a nice award of a £35 fine for not paying the Dartford Crossing charge. Wonder how many people get fined now there are no ticket booths. Bet its a great little earner. Obvious solution I guess is to go the other way round. Might add to emissions etc but the additional fuel cost is likely to be less than £35.

Seems the whole game these days is to fine the motorist at every opportunity.

[RBS Bob]

If it is your 1st over the Dartford toll.

Give them a ring.

For 1st offenders they usually let you pay just the crossing fee.

[anonymous-user]

Chrisgr31 said:

I am slightly puzzled. Surely those big no right turn signs were visible on the supplied video? If they were only put up on the 30th October and your nieces offense predates that, what was there before?

Yesterday I received a nice award of a £35 fine for not paying the Dartford Crossing charge. Wonder how many people get fined now there are no ticket booths. Bet its a great little earner. Obvious solution I guess is to go the other way round. Might add to emissions etc but the additional fuel cost is likely to be less than £35.

Seems the whole game these days is to fine the motorist at every opportunity.

Some of the fine-collectors are private enterprises making a buck, which is what private enterprises try to do. Other fine collectors are local or central government bodies. People will not vote to pay taxes, but they demand roads, hospitals, schools, police forces, armies, and so forth. Go, as they say, figure.

Another option re the Dartford charge is to pay it. That is cheaper than the fine and the fuel. Last month I forgot to pay the Congestion Charge when borrowing a friend's car. When the penalty notice came in I paid up. I didn't blame society for making me a scatterbrain.


PS: OffenCe. Dartford is in the UK, not the USA (there is a at least one Dartford in the USA, but it's not this Dartford).

[Scrump]

Chrisgr31 said:

I am slightly puzzled. Surely those big no right turn signs were visible on the supplied video? If they were only put up on the 30th October and your nieces offense predates that, what was there before?

The video showed her car turning at the junction, it did not show what was before the junction.
From the video there was no way to tell what signs were there, hence my original post.