Mobile speed camera illegal parking query ?
Discussion
Buster73 said:
A1 Northbound near the Angel a mobile camera van has been parked on the grass just to the left of the inside lane of the dual carriageway but on the grass.
Is this parking illegal, if so would any evidence provided by the van be inadmissible in law ?
Asking for a friend....
Is it on a section that's a clearway? (7 miles past the angel heading North). Even then, fine to park on the verge.Is this parking illegal, if so would any evidence provided by the van be inadmissible in law ?
Asking for a friend....
If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Solocle said:
Is it on a section that's a clearway? (7 miles past the angel heading North). Even then, fine to park on the verge.
If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Probably less than a mile north of the Angel turn off , just past the bridge NB , definitely not on the carriage way.If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Buster73 said:
Solocle said:
Is it on a section that's a clearway? (7 miles past the angel heading North). Even then, fine to park on the verge.
If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Probably less than a mile north of the Angel turn off , just past the bridge NB , definitely not on the carriage way.If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Definitely legal if it's not impinging on the carriageway.
“clearway” means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight lines provided for at item 9;
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedu...
Pica-Pica said:
As far as I know, parking on any grass would be trespass, if anything at all, therefore a civil, not a criminal offence.
As far as I know, the verge is still part of the carriageway, hence a public right of way. Hence the "area of carriageway bounded" wording in the legislation.Edited by Solocle on Saturday 4th January 22:54
No. First of all vehicles used for "policie purposes" (which doesn't necessarily mean responding to an immediate emergency) are exempt from most parking restrictions.
And secondly, even if the van was parked illegally, in most cases in UK law evidence remains admissible even if it is obtained illegally - there is no equivalent of the American doctrine of "the fruit of the poisoned tree". The manner in which the evidence was obtained is usually only relevant if it affects its reliability - otherwise any illegality on the part of the police can be dealt with separately. So it would just mean that the van driver would get a parking ticket to match your (friend's) speeding ticket.
(To be fair, it would be self-evidently absurd if you witnessed a murder but your evidence was disallowed because you were parked on a double yellow line at the time - so why would the principles be any different for more minor offences?)
And secondly, even if the van was parked illegally, in most cases in UK law evidence remains admissible even if it is obtained illegally - there is no equivalent of the American doctrine of "the fruit of the poisoned tree". The manner in which the evidence was obtained is usually only relevant if it affects its reliability - otherwise any illegality on the part of the police can be dealt with separately. So it would just mean that the van driver would get a parking ticket to match your (friend's) speeding ticket.
(To be fair, it would be self-evidently absurd if you witnessed a murder but your evidence was disallowed because you were parked on a double yellow line at the time - so why would the principles be any different for more minor offences?)
Solocle said:
As far as I know, the verge is still part of the carriageway, hence a public right of way. Hence the "area of carriageway bounded" wording in the legislation.
Comprehensive answer , thanks for that.Edited by Solocle on Saturday 4th January 22:54
Ps. It’s not me who’s been caught.
Solocle said:
Buster73 said:
Solocle said:
Is it on a section that's a clearway? (7 miles past the angel heading North). Even then, fine to park on the verge.
If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Probably less than a mile north of the Angel turn off , just past the bridge NB , definitely not on the carriage way.If not, it would be legal to park on the carriageway itself.
Definitely legal if it's not impinging on the carriageway.
“clearway” means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight lines provided for at item 9;
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedu...
24 hour clearways are covered by Schedule 3 of the TSRGD 2016. They do not require any road markings only the upright signs.
Solocle said:
Pica-Pica said:
As far as I know, parking on any grass would be trespass, if anything at all, therefore a civil, not a criminal offence.
As far as I know, the verge is still part of the carriageway, hence a public right of way. Hence the "area of carriageway bounded" wording in the legislation.Cat
Aretnap said:
And secondly, even if the van was parked illegally, in most cases in UK law evidence remains admissible even if it is obtained illegally - there is no equivalent of the American doctrine of "the fruit of the poisoned tree".
Not quite correct. This may apply in civil cases but in criminal matters it is at the discretion of the judge whether to allow evidence to be used in court no matter how it was obtained. PACE S78 ED209 said:
Pica-Pica said:
As far as I know, parking on any grass would be trespass, if anything at all, therefore a civil, not a criminal offence.
It’s grass that is part of the A1 verge it will belong to the highway it certainly isn’t trespassPica-Pica said:
Hmmm. When we, a Parish Council, talked to our local allocated police officer about cars parking on the grass verge to drop children off at a local secondary school, his advice was that it was not a criminal matter, but civil trespass. This was an A Road. It would depend on who actually owns the land.
Are you sure he didn't mean it's not a criminal matter in that police do not deal with parking issues, but the local authority do?Lonely said:
Pica-Pica said:
Hmmm. When we, a Parish Council, talked to our local allocated police officer about cars parking on the grass verge to drop children off at a local secondary school, his advice was that it was not a criminal matter, but civil trespass. This was an A Road. It would depend on who actually owns the land.
Are you sure he didn't mean it's not a criminal matter in that police do not deal with parking issues, but the local authority do?In other news, I've also seen recently on here the definition of "the highway" as being hedge to hedge/physical barrier to physical barrier, so the verge would technically be part of the highway.
In all cases, just not speeding renders the point moot, surely?
martinbiz said:
Parked legally or illegally is totally irrelevant in any case. If the van obtained evidence of an offence being commited, then said evidence can be used to prosecute. Whether people like that or think it shouldn't be allowed is another debate entirely.
Quite. It’s not a get out.There's actually a bay there specifically for the scamera vans if you look closely. There are several other similar bays along that section of road which they put in when the road was upgraded and the speed limit downgraded (actually, despite the police objection to it being lowered). The claim was that it would smooth traffic flow leading to fewer accidents.
They have only very recently started to use scamera vans on this road, now claiming the accident rate is too high. The fact that it's the busiest road in the North East and one of the busiest in the country, with an artificially low speed limit has nothing to do with it obviously.
They have only very recently started to use scamera vans on this road, now claiming the accident rate is too high. The fact that it's the busiest road in the North East and one of the busiest in the country, with an artificially low speed limit has nothing to do with it obviously.
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