Should I appeal or just pay?
Discussion
Overstayed in a car park a couple of weeks ago and just had an NTK from Euro Car Parks with an accurate entry and exit time (12:51 to 16:09), per the two number plate pics - but the Parking Charge says
".....the vehicle was in breach of the following terms and conditions; no valid pay and display/permit was purchased"
Now, the thing is, I do still have the ticket that I paid for and I had to put my number plate on it when I bought it and it was displayed in my car (but I think that is irrelevant as they have based it on ANPR entry/exit time.
The ticket I purchased runs from 12:57 through to 15:57 - I had to queue to buy the ticket, as there were several people in front of me, which accounts for the 6 minute difference, so I can't deny that I was a little late back to the car but a £100 'fine' for 12 minutes overstay does seem a little excessive.
Is it worth appealing based on the wording of the offence being 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased', or should I just cough up. Seems that i would have been fined the same whether overstaying by 12 minutes or not bothered paying for parking at all?
".....the vehicle was in breach of the following terms and conditions; no valid pay and display/permit was purchased"
Now, the thing is, I do still have the ticket that I paid for and I had to put my number plate on it when I bought it and it was displayed in my car (but I think that is irrelevant as they have based it on ANPR entry/exit time.
The ticket I purchased runs from 12:57 through to 15:57 - I had to queue to buy the ticket, as there were several people in front of me, which accounts for the 6 minute difference, so I can't deny that I was a little late back to the car but a £100 'fine' for 12 minutes overstay does seem a little excessive.
Is it worth appealing based on the wording of the offence being 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased', or should I just cough up. Seems that i would have been fined the same whether overstaying by 12 minutes or not bothered paying for parking at all?
Key word is “valid”. If you had a ticket from the day before in the windscreen then that too would not be valid, though more obviously so. Your ticket wasn’t valid because it did not cover the full period your car was in the facility.
As to whether or not you should appeal or whatever, will leave that up to others.
As to whether or not you should appeal or whatever, will leave that up to others.
Your ticket expired at 1557 (which you'd have been aware of) yet you exited at 1609. Whilst you may not have been aware of cameras logging entry/exit times, you can't argue the fact that you overstayed and the cameras caught it. Trying to find a loophole to wiggle out of paying is the gold standard in stubbornness.
You didn't have a valid ticket for your entire stay so not sure you have any argument. Unless you want to contest the accuracy of the ANPR camera clock?
You didn't have a valid ticket for your entire stay so not sure you have any argument. Unless you want to contest the accuracy of the ANPR camera clock?
To add some balance, I would disagree with both of the above replies.
The parking company are accusing you of not purchasing a ticket, rather than overstaying.
I would appeal on the basis that their accusation is unfounded, and that you have the ticket as proof of having purchased a ticket.
Should they subsequently change their claim to that of overstating, then that is a different claim, and a different set of arguments could be put forward in defence of that particular claim.
The parking company are accusing you of not purchasing a ticket, rather than overstaying.
I would appeal on the basis that their accusation is unfounded, and that you have the ticket as proof of having purchased a ticket.
Should they subsequently change their claim to that of overstating, then that is a different claim, and a different set of arguments could be put forward in defence of that particular claim.
Mandat said:
To add some balance, I would disagree with both of the above replies.
The parking company are accusing you of not purchasing a ticket, rather than overstaying.
The key word you omit is 'valid' ticket. Yes, he bought a ticket, but it was not valid for the entire stay. So for the last 12 minutes of the stay, no valid ticket had been purchased.The parking company are accusing you of not purchasing a ticket, rather than overstaying.
I'm not up on parking law so there might be a loophole to squeeze through but on face value it appears legit.
xx99xx said:
The key word you omit is 'valid' ticket. Yes, he bought a ticket, but it was not valid for the entire stay. So for the last 12 minutes of the stay, no valid ticket had been purchased.
I'm not up on parking law so there might be a loophole to squeeze through but on face value it appears legit.
What's the basis of your definition of "valid" in this context?I'm not up on parking law so there might be a loophole to squeeze through but on face value it appears legit.
You could well be correct in your interpretation, but it seems like a convoluted stretch to say that the claim of "no valid pay and display/permit was purchased" actually means overstaying.
Why wouldn't to parking company just claim overstaying in the fist place, if that is what they are claiming?
To me, the implication was that no ticket at all had been purchased, not that I had overstayed.
In any case, I believe that there are rules regarding a ‘grace period’ both upon entering and leaving and that the period should not be less than 10 minutes, which, if you take at face value means that I have been fined at a rate of £50 per minute, which does seem excessive.
Been trying to find a NTK for an overstay, rather than no valid ticket. Might just appeal and see what they say, although you know they will reject it.
In any case, I believe that there are rules regarding a ‘grace period’ both upon entering and leaving and that the period should not be less than 10 minutes, which, if you take at face value means that I have been fined at a rate of £50 per minute, which does seem excessive.
Been trying to find a NTK for an overstay, rather than no valid ticket. Might just appeal and see what they say, although you know they will reject it.
pincher said:
In any case, I believe that there are rules regarding a ‘grace period’ both upon entering and leaving and that the period should not be less than 10 minutes, which, if you take at face value means that I have been fined at a rate of £50 per minute, which does seem excessive.
But then you'd want a grace period on the grace period. If there is a 10 minute grace period and you exceed it, how would you want it to work?Bert
Durzel said:
Not being facetious, but what "rules" are you talking about regarding a grace period. Wouldn't that be entirely discretionary?
(I know logically a grace period to get back to your car should be a given)
Section 13.3 of of BPA (of which Euro Car Parks are members) Code of Practice(I know logically a grace period to get back to your car should be a given)
Did you receive the request fro payment, OR wax it a notice stuck to the windscreen followed up by a letter?
Was the car park a fixed three hour one, and is it patrolled?
There is a ruling by a court that the times noted by ANPR cameras do not constitute parking, only that a car entered and left at those times. Thejudge/magistrate made a point the the car driver could have been driving around the car park for a space, before PARKING, and that after parking could have been caught up in a queue attempting to exit
IIRC this is noted on pepipoo.com regardsing a beach ar park in Cornwall, well known for ANPR infractions
But we need to know how the letter was worded and how the PPC knows what times you entrerd and left
On what you have said i would think you have a VERY small chance of appealling this, but more info is treqd
Best is for you to do the following
1) DO NOT contact the PPC ,and if you do DO NOT give them any indication on who was driving..
2) Put this up on pepipoo and give them every detail and answer truthfully any question, BUT when you put the case up again DO NOT say who was driving , Use the driver paid this, the driver saw that, the driver left the site, The moment you put I, We, My wife, aunt, friend, family cat on anything you have a good chance of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory,even with what looks like to be a lost cause IMHO
3) see what pepipoo say, they are good at looking at the small print and who are the bad boys in that trade
So it is up to you spend some time to save some money, and not paying them OR paying them and keep the buggers in business,so they can prey on other easily turned over drivers.
As i said.The final decision is yours It is your money .nobody elses
Was the car park a fixed three hour one, and is it patrolled?
There is a ruling by a court that the times noted by ANPR cameras do not constitute parking, only that a car entered and left at those times. Thejudge/magistrate made a point the the car driver could have been driving around the car park for a space, before PARKING, and that after parking could have been caught up in a queue attempting to exit
IIRC this is noted on pepipoo.com regardsing a beach ar park in Cornwall, well known for ANPR infractions
But we need to know how the letter was worded and how the PPC knows what times you entrerd and left
On what you have said i would think you have a VERY small chance of appealling this, but more info is treqd
Best is for you to do the following
1) DO NOT contact the PPC ,and if you do DO NOT give them any indication on who was driving..
2) Put this up on pepipoo and give them every detail and answer truthfully any question, BUT when you put the case up again DO NOT say who was driving , Use the driver paid this, the driver saw that, the driver left the site, The moment you put I, We, My wife, aunt, friend, family cat on anything you have a good chance of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory,even with what looks like to be a lost cause IMHO
3) see what pepipoo say, they are good at looking at the small print and who are the bad boys in that trade
So it is up to you spend some time to save some money, and not paying them OR paying them and keep the buggers in business,so they can prey on other easily turned over drivers.
As i said.The final decision is yours It is your money .nobody elses
First I knew about it was when I opened the Notice To Keeper letter last night - no notice left on windscreen on the day.
You can pay by the hour, incrementally, by purchasing a ticket to display and you have to enter your number plate in order to buy a ticket. I don’t know if it is patrolled but I would imagine it isn’t.
They included two (different) pics of my numberplate, with a timestamp underneath.
The inbound pic & timestamp is 6 minutes before my ticket start time. This is attributable to the fact I had to find a space, park, walk over to the pay machine and then get in the queue to purchase a ticket.
The outbound pic & timestamp is 12 minutes after the ticket expired (it was for 3 hours duration)
As mentioned in my original post, the NTK says ".....the vehicle was in breach of the following terms and conditions; no valid pay and display/permit was purchased". It doesn’t say that the vehicle overstayed - trying to find if there are any examples where that is the reason for a charge being applied.
You can pay by the hour, incrementally, by purchasing a ticket to display and you have to enter your number plate in order to buy a ticket. I don’t know if it is patrolled but I would imagine it isn’t.
They included two (different) pics of my numberplate, with a timestamp underneath.
The inbound pic & timestamp is 6 minutes before my ticket start time. This is attributable to the fact I had to find a space, park, walk over to the pay machine and then get in the queue to purchase a ticket.
The outbound pic & timestamp is 12 minutes after the ticket expired (it was for 3 hours duration)
As mentioned in my original post, the NTK says ".....the vehicle was in breach of the following terms and conditions; no valid pay and display/permit was purchased". It doesn’t say that the vehicle overstayed - trying to find if there are any examples where that is the reason for a charge being applied.
Inbound - not a problem. You have to go buy a ticket so there's a period of grace.
Outbound - problem. You left 12 minutes after your ticket expired. Had it been 9 minutes you would have been ok.
Overstaying? No. You had a ticket from a past time - it may as well have been 6 months ago.
At 'T+12' You hadn't paid and didn't have a ticket hence 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased'.
Pretty clear cut and you could spend hours fighting it but it's unlikely to be time well spent.
Pay it and make a mental note to get back on time in future.
Outbound - problem. You left 12 minutes after your ticket expired. Had it been 9 minutes you would have been ok.
Overstaying? No. You had a ticket from a past time - it may as well have been 6 months ago.
At 'T+12' You hadn't paid and didn't have a ticket hence 'no valid pay and display/permit was purchased'.
Pretty clear cut and you could spend hours fighting it but it's unlikely to be time well spent.
Pay it and make a mental note to get back on time in future.
swagmeister said:
Quite simple, pay it, move on and dont use their car parks again.
Im sure your time fighting it is worth a lot more then £100, regardless of the armchair legal experts on here cross examining every term condition and wording.
Don't use the car park again because of a mistake you made? Im sure your time fighting it is worth a lot more then £100, regardless of the armchair legal experts on here cross examining every term condition and wording.
It's cutting off your face to spite your face to the extreme when it's a problem of your own creation.
Is it valid if you get a letter without a notice being stuck to the windscreen first? There was a cowboy company recently that got done for issuing false parking notices on correctly parked cars and not sticking the frivilous notice to the windscreen first but waiting a few weeks then posting them. They hoped that people would throw their tickets away on leaving the carpark unaware that they had been (unnecessarily) recorded by the company and roll over, accept that someone had nicked the non-existent sticky on the window ticket and have no defence when the notice to keeper arrived in the post some weeks later. Fortunately they got busted....
If the ffirst indication of such an action was a letter threough the post it MUST be dleivered by the 14th day after said infraction
Thisi s part and parcel of POFA 2012
If it arrives on day 15 the PPC have failed to comply and as such cannot chase the keeper only the driver, whom as any fule kno the keeper has no legal liabiilty to inform them despite all their protestation and idle threats about court, CCJ, etc
OP
1) when did the parking occur
2) when did you get the letter ( even better is there a date on it?
I had one fron Britannia parking some time afo and YES i did overstay in a 90min free Waitrose Car park.
There letter arrived way outside the 14 days plus they didn't compy with a part of the POFA that says that have to do sometime
I wrote back pointing both of these erros aout and got a letter back ,telling me no further action and dont do it again!!!
Worth knowing these small bit
Thisi s part and parcel of POFA 2012
If it arrives on day 15 the PPC have failed to comply and as such cannot chase the keeper only the driver, whom as any fule kno the keeper has no legal liabiilty to inform them despite all their protestation and idle threats about court, CCJ, etc
OP
1) when did the parking occur
2) when did you get the letter ( even better is there a date on it?
I had one fron Britannia parking some time afo and YES i did overstay in a 90min free Waitrose Car park.
There letter arrived way outside the 14 days plus they didn't compy with a part of the POFA that says that have to do sometime
I wrote back pointing both of these erros aout and got a letter back ,telling me no further action and dont do it again!!!
Worth knowing these small bit
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