Is disobeying a sign without a TRO an offence?
Discussion
Hi,
I recently (January) committed the sin of turning left where a 613 type sign said not to. Could I get some advice on the technicalities please?
This was a genuine accident(*) but I managed to pull it off in front of a police boy(**) who was stationed nearby.
His reaction to "Sorry sir, yes I turned left out that carpark. That always used to be allowed but they've changed it at some point since I moved away, I was looking at traffic in the junction not the signage, and by the time I could see the road and realised it was red I'd already turned left." was to throw the book at me then shot off back to his hiding spot to wait for the next person making that mistake.
I'm now looking at a conditional offer of a fixed penalty for "Drive vehicle and fail to comply with an indication given by a traffic sign - local traffic order outside Greater London"
Q1) Is this an alleged offence an actual offence if there is no TRO in place? (i.e. Is disobeying the sign an offence in itself even if there's no paperwork to support the sign being there )
Q2) Is the location on the paperwork being wrong material? Enough for a magistrate to chuck it out or would it be considered irrelevant? (Wrong road / location - I turned left out of Aldi in red circle, paperwork says blue circle)
Q3) If for paperwork convenience I admit to an alleged offence that I didn't actually commit (take the fixed penalty for the wrong location) could I be prosecuted again for the actual alleged offence? (i.e. The police boy did some other things that were so out of order I've bought a dashcam for the purposes of holding any future police boys to account and I'd like to put a formal complaint against his name that he's unable to defend - if it's possible to bank the penalty and return the favour without opening myself up to further vindictive prosecution)
If nothing else had happened I'd curse, pay the £50 for this non-endorsable offence, and forget it. I've just managed to get clocked at 35 in a 30(***) limit in December though and don't fancy forking out the insurance premium for having two offences on record. (these are the only two I'd had in the 18 years I've been driving...but having two being in 2 months will be a problem)
Thanks!
---
For what it's worth:
(*)The junction used to be a favourite on the driving test route. Turn left out of the car park. Drive 20 metres. Turn left join one of only three bits of dual carriageway in the whole county at the time. Change lanes. Turn right across dual carriageway. Do some more faff. Eat sleep rinse repeat for practice lane changing etc. So it's well grooved into my subconscious but now no longer allowed. Unfortunately I then left home and at some point in the last decade somebody prohibited the left turn out of that car park onto what is otherwise exactly the same two-way road with a splash of red paint on it. And in the dark and pishing rain and 5pm bumper to bumper traffic by the time I'd clocked the red paint and stopped I was half a car's length into that magic red box and police boy had his victim. FFS. If it were deliberate or in the slightest bit risky I wouldn't mind being pulled up. But it was effing part of the driving test route and nothing about the road itself has changed apart from some paint and a signpost.
(**)He might have started shaving but it definitely recent and the attitude was very definitely one of enjoying his first taste of power and responsibility.
(***)Turning from a 40 limit dual carriageway, just after a 40 repeater, into a side road that looks just like the 40 limit with segregated bus lane, setback pavements etc...but unless you weren't checking your blindspot as you were turning, and were instead looking for a 30 limit sign in amongst bus lane clutter...the first you'll know about it is a revenue camera hiding in some bushes right at the point you'd be expecting a 40 limiter repeater. Took the speed awareness course. Not a total waste of time - the chap giving the course thought this was particularly cynical revenue camera given the signage and the lack of any accident stats to support the location - and the local Highways bod has opened a ticket for "where should these 30 limit signs be if we actually want people to see the things" - so fingers crossed he decides to spoil future fun for the camera van by signing the limit change visibly. :-)
Historic experiences with traffic police were always great.
"Today we're going to teach you where all the fun roads are and how to ride them without dying" [bike safe course run by Dyfed Powys traffic police]
"You've got no tax. Do you have MOT and insurance?" "Yes." "Why don't you have tax? It's free. [for this tax exempt Land Rover]" "I changed the engine, those chimpanzees at the DVLA haven't sent the V5 back yet, and I need the car." "Oh, those idiots. Ok. What did you stick in it?" "Rover Vitesse." "Can I see?" "Oooh, it's the two litre turbo one. Where's the engine number on these?" "There" "Righto. Let me berate the DVLA and I'll be right back... ...done. Nice truck. Tax is when the V5 arrives and if you get any grief from anybody local tell them X has checked it. I can't promise the same if you go out the county though."
Something has gone wrong in the last decade though with who they're recruiting and what they're actually doing. Pointless little hitlers persecuting mistakes rather than a useful service. Shame.
I recently (January) committed the sin of turning left where a 613 type sign said not to. Could I get some advice on the technicalities please?
This was a genuine accident(*) but I managed to pull it off in front of a police boy(**) who was stationed nearby.
His reaction to "Sorry sir, yes I turned left out that carpark. That always used to be allowed but they've changed it at some point since I moved away, I was looking at traffic in the junction not the signage, and by the time I could see the road and realised it was red I'd already turned left." was to throw the book at me then shot off back to his hiding spot to wait for the next person making that mistake.
I'm now looking at a conditional offer of a fixed penalty for "Drive vehicle and fail to comply with an indication given by a traffic sign - local traffic order outside Greater London"
Q1) Is this an alleged offence an actual offence if there is no TRO in place? (i.e. Is disobeying the sign an offence in itself even if there's no paperwork to support the sign being there )
Q2) Is the location on the paperwork being wrong material? Enough for a magistrate to chuck it out or would it be considered irrelevant? (Wrong road / location - I turned left out of Aldi in red circle, paperwork says blue circle)
Q3) If for paperwork convenience I admit to an alleged offence that I didn't actually commit (take the fixed penalty for the wrong location) could I be prosecuted again for the actual alleged offence? (i.e. The police boy did some other things that were so out of order I've bought a dashcam for the purposes of holding any future police boys to account and I'd like to put a formal complaint against his name that he's unable to defend - if it's possible to bank the penalty and return the favour without opening myself up to further vindictive prosecution)
If nothing else had happened I'd curse, pay the £50 for this non-endorsable offence, and forget it. I've just managed to get clocked at 35 in a 30(***) limit in December though and don't fancy forking out the insurance premium for having two offences on record. (these are the only two I'd had in the 18 years I've been driving...but having two being in 2 months will be a problem)
Thanks!
---
For what it's worth:
(*)The junction used to be a favourite on the driving test route. Turn left out of the car park. Drive 20 metres. Turn left join one of only three bits of dual carriageway in the whole county at the time. Change lanes. Turn right across dual carriageway. Do some more faff. Eat sleep rinse repeat for practice lane changing etc. So it's well grooved into my subconscious but now no longer allowed. Unfortunately I then left home and at some point in the last decade somebody prohibited the left turn out of that car park onto what is otherwise exactly the same two-way road with a splash of red paint on it. And in the dark and pishing rain and 5pm bumper to bumper traffic by the time I'd clocked the red paint and stopped I was half a car's length into that magic red box and police boy had his victim. FFS. If it were deliberate or in the slightest bit risky I wouldn't mind being pulled up. But it was effing part of the driving test route and nothing about the road itself has changed apart from some paint and a signpost.
(**)He might have started shaving but it definitely recent and the attitude was very definitely one of enjoying his first taste of power and responsibility.
(***)Turning from a 40 limit dual carriageway, just after a 40 repeater, into a side road that looks just like the 40 limit with segregated bus lane, setback pavements etc...but unless you weren't checking your blindspot as you were turning, and were instead looking for a 30 limit sign in amongst bus lane clutter...the first you'll know about it is a revenue camera hiding in some bushes right at the point you'd be expecting a 40 limiter repeater. Took the speed awareness course. Not a total waste of time - the chap giving the course thought this was particularly cynical revenue camera given the signage and the lack of any accident stats to support the location - and the local Highways bod has opened a ticket for "where should these 30 limit signs be if we actually want people to see the things" - so fingers crossed he decides to spoil future fun for the camera van by signing the limit change visibly. :-)
Historic experiences with traffic police were always great.
"Today we're going to teach you where all the fun roads are and how to ride them without dying" [bike safe course run by Dyfed Powys traffic police]
"You've got no tax. Do you have MOT and insurance?" "Yes." "Why don't you have tax? It's free. [for this tax exempt Land Rover]" "I changed the engine, those chimpanzees at the DVLA haven't sent the V5 back yet, and I need the car." "Oh, those idiots. Ok. What did you stick in it?" "Rover Vitesse." "Can I see?" "Oooh, it's the two litre turbo one. Where's the engine number on these?" "There" "Righto. Let me berate the DVLA and I'll be right back... ...done. Nice truck. Tax is when the V5 arrives and if you get any grief from anybody local tell them X has checked it. I can't promise the same if you go out the county though."
Something has gone wrong in the last decade though with who they're recruiting and what they're actually doing. Pointless little hitlers persecuting mistakes rather than a useful service. Shame.
markocosic said:
Hi,
I recently (January) committed the sin of turning left where a 613 type sign said not to. Could I get some advice on the technicalities please?
This was a genuine accident(*) but I managed to pull it off in front of a police boy(**) who was stationed nearby.
His reaction to "Sorry sir, yes I turned left out that carpark. That always used to be allowed but they've changed it at some point since I moved away, I was looking at traffic in the junction not the signage, and by the time I could see the road and realised it was red I'd already turned left." was to throw the book at me then shot off back to his hiding spot to wait for the next person making that mistake.
I'm now looking at a conditional offer of a fixed penalty for "Drive vehicle and fail to comply with an indication given by a traffic sign - local traffic order outside Greater London"
Q1) Is this an alleged offence an actual offence if there is no TRO in place? (i.e. Is disobeying the sign an offence in itself even if there's no paperwork to support the sign being there )
Q2) Is the location on the paperwork being wrong material? Enough for a magistrate to chuck it out or would it be considered irrelevant? (Wrong road / location - I turned left out of Aldi in red circle, paperwork says blue circle)
Q3) If for paperwork convenience I admit to an alleged offence that I didn't actually commit (take the fixed penalty for the wrong location) could I be prosecuted again for the actual alleged offence? (i.e. The police boy did some other things that were so out of order I've bought a dashcam for the purposes of holding any future police boys to account and I'd like to put a formal complaint against his name that he's unable to defend - if it's possible to bank the penalty and return the favour without opening myself up to further vindictive prosecution)
If nothing else had happened I'd curse, pay the £50 for this non-endorsable offence, and forget it. I've just managed to get clocked at 35 in a 30(***) limit in December though and don't fancy forking out the insurance premium for having two offences on record. (these are the only two I'd had in the 18 years I've been driving...but having two being in 2 months will be a problem)
Thanks!
---
For what it's worth:
(*)The junction used to be a favourite on the driving test route. Turn left out of the car park. Drive 20 metres. Turn left join one of only three bits of dual carriageway in the whole county at the time. Change lanes. Turn right across dual carriageway. Do some more faff. Eat sleep rinse repeat for practice lane changing etc. So it's well grooved into my subconscious but now no longer allowed. Unfortunately I then left home and at some point in the last decade somebody prohibited the left turn out of that car park onto what is otherwise exactly the same two-way road with a splash of red paint on it. And in the dark and pishing rain and 5pm bumper to bumper traffic by the time I'd clocked the red paint and stopped I was half a car's length into that magic red box and police boy had his victim. FFS. If it were deliberate or in the slightest bit risky I wouldn't mind being pulled up. But it was effing part of the driving test route and nothing about the road itself has changed apart from some paint and a signpost.
(**)He might have started shaving but it definitely recent and the attitude was very definitely one of enjoying his first taste of power and responsibility.
(***)Turning from a 40 limit dual carriageway, just after a 40 repeater, into a side road that looks just like the 40 limit with segregated bus lane, setback pavements etc...but unless you weren't checking your blindspot as you were turning, and were instead looking for a 30 limit sign in amongst bus lane clutter...the first you'll know about it is a revenue camera hiding in some bushes right at the point you'd be expecting a 40 limiter repeater. Took the speed awareness course. Not a total waste of time - the chap giving the course thought this was particularly cynical revenue camera given the signage and the lack of any accident stats to support the location - and the local Highways bod has opened a ticket for "where should these 30 limit signs be if we actually want people to see the things" - so fingers crossed he decides to spoil future fun for the camera van by signing the limit change visibly. :-)
Historic experiences with traffic police were always great.
"Today we're going to teach you where all the fun roads are and how to ride them without dying" [bike safe course run by Dyfed Powys traffic police]
"You've got no tax. Do you have MOT and insurance?" "Yes." "Why don't you have tax? It's free. [for this tax exempt Land Rover]" "I changed the engine, those chimpanzees at the DVLA haven't sent the V5 back yet, and I need the car." "Oh, those idiots. Ok. What did you stick in it?" "Rover Vitesse." "Can I see?" "Oooh, it's the two litre turbo one. Where's the engine number on these?" "There" "Righto. Let me berate the DVLA and I'll be right back... ...done. Nice truck. Tax is when the V5 arrives and if you get any grief from anybody local tell them X has checked it. I can't promise the same if you go out the county though."
Something has gone wrong in the last decade though with who they're recruiting and what they're actually doing. Pointless little hitlers persecuting mistakes rather than a useful service. Shame.
1) No the sign has to be lawfully placed on a road. Needs the TRO, similar or some other authority and sufficient signage. I recently (January) committed the sin of turning left where a 613 type sign said not to. Could I get some advice on the technicalities please?
This was a genuine accident(*) but I managed to pull it off in front of a police boy(**) who was stationed nearby.
His reaction to "Sorry sir, yes I turned left out that carpark. That always used to be allowed but they've changed it at some point since I moved away, I was looking at traffic in the junction not the signage, and by the time I could see the road and realised it was red I'd already turned left." was to throw the book at me then shot off back to his hiding spot to wait for the next person making that mistake.
I'm now looking at a conditional offer of a fixed penalty for "Drive vehicle and fail to comply with an indication given by a traffic sign - local traffic order outside Greater London"
Q1) Is this an alleged offence an actual offence if there is no TRO in place? (i.e. Is disobeying the sign an offence in itself even if there's no paperwork to support the sign being there )
Q2) Is the location on the paperwork being wrong material? Enough for a magistrate to chuck it out or would it be considered irrelevant? (Wrong road / location - I turned left out of Aldi in red circle, paperwork says blue circle)
Q3) If for paperwork convenience I admit to an alleged offence that I didn't actually commit (take the fixed penalty for the wrong location) could I be prosecuted again for the actual alleged offence? (i.e. The police boy did some other things that were so out of order I've bought a dashcam for the purposes of holding any future police boys to account and I'd like to put a formal complaint against his name that he's unable to defend - if it's possible to bank the penalty and return the favour without opening myself up to further vindictive prosecution)
If nothing else had happened I'd curse, pay the £50 for this non-endorsable offence, and forget it. I've just managed to get clocked at 35 in a 30(***) limit in December though and don't fancy forking out the insurance premium for having two offences on record. (these are the only two I'd had in the 18 years I've been driving...but having two being in 2 months will be a problem)
Thanks!
---
For what it's worth:
(*)The junction used to be a favourite on the driving test route. Turn left out of the car park. Drive 20 metres. Turn left join one of only three bits of dual carriageway in the whole county at the time. Change lanes. Turn right across dual carriageway. Do some more faff. Eat sleep rinse repeat for practice lane changing etc. So it's well grooved into my subconscious but now no longer allowed. Unfortunately I then left home and at some point in the last decade somebody prohibited the left turn out of that car park onto what is otherwise exactly the same two-way road with a splash of red paint on it. And in the dark and pishing rain and 5pm bumper to bumper traffic by the time I'd clocked the red paint and stopped I was half a car's length into that magic red box and police boy had his victim. FFS. If it were deliberate or in the slightest bit risky I wouldn't mind being pulled up. But it was effing part of the driving test route and nothing about the road itself has changed apart from some paint and a signpost.
(**)He might have started shaving but it definitely recent and the attitude was very definitely one of enjoying his first taste of power and responsibility.
(***)Turning from a 40 limit dual carriageway, just after a 40 repeater, into a side road that looks just like the 40 limit with segregated bus lane, setback pavements etc...but unless you weren't checking your blindspot as you were turning, and were instead looking for a 30 limit sign in amongst bus lane clutter...the first you'll know about it is a revenue camera hiding in some bushes right at the point you'd be expecting a 40 limiter repeater. Took the speed awareness course. Not a total waste of time - the chap giving the course thought this was particularly cynical revenue camera given the signage and the lack of any accident stats to support the location - and the local Highways bod has opened a ticket for "where should these 30 limit signs be if we actually want people to see the things" - so fingers crossed he decides to spoil future fun for the camera van by signing the limit change visibly. :-)
Historic experiences with traffic police were always great.
"Today we're going to teach you where all the fun roads are and how to ride them without dying" [bike safe course run by Dyfed Powys traffic police]
"You've got no tax. Do you have MOT and insurance?" "Yes." "Why don't you have tax? It's free. [for this tax exempt Land Rover]" "I changed the engine, those chimpanzees at the DVLA haven't sent the V5 back yet, and I need the car." "Oh, those idiots. Ok. What did you stick in it?" "Rover Vitesse." "Can I see?" "Oooh, it's the two litre turbo one. Where's the engine number on these?" "There" "Righto. Let me berate the DVLA and I'll be right back... ...done. Nice truck. Tax is when the V5 arrives and if you get any grief from anybody local tell them X has checked it. I can't promise the same if you go out the county though."
Something has gone wrong in the last decade though with who they're recruiting and what they're actually doing. Pointless little hitlers persecuting mistakes rather than a useful service. Shame.
2) Unlikely as there is a slippage rule. In any event the COFP is not a summons which may or may not end up with the correct location if you decline. Only you know if it is worth it to possibly save £50 against the hassle and possibly having to pay significantly more.
3) Almost definitely No
Ever since Dixon got a pen probationer/St Duties officers have been sent out to practice where minor infractions of various categories take place. It's low confrontation and means they can make mistakes, without massive consequences. The downside is cases like yours as discretion doesn't let them practice filling in forms or evidence their competencies. For some, it's the last time they ever do it, for others it's the start of a life long love affair (Which is good as they usually have no chance of losing their virginity)
Maybe not relevant in this case, but a number of years ago a mate of mine made a point of deliberately ignoring a new one way which he knew had no TPO and making a fuss about it when stopped.
He got done for careless driving instead.
Back on topic, I don't know if you'll get off with this on a "technicality", but it looks pretty obvious to me that that's a one way now.
He got done for careless driving instead.
Back on topic, I don't know if you'll get off with this on a "technicality", but it looks pretty obvious to me that that's a one way now.
Desiderata said:
Maybe not relevant in this case, but a number of years ago a mate of mine made a point of deliberately ignoring a new one way which he knew had no TPO and making a fuss about it when stopped.
He got done for careless driving instead.
Back on topic, I don't know if you'll get off with this on a "technicality", but it looks pretty obvious to me that that's a one way now.
That made me laugh.He got done for careless driving instead.
Back on topic, I don't know if you'll get off with this on a "technicality", but it looks pretty obvious to me that that's a one way now.
Wooda80 said:
If thats what you drove over to turn left it you got what you deserved and as some of the posts above elude to you could end up with a more serious charge.markocosic said:
Something has gone wrong in the last decade though with who they're recruiting and what they're actually doing. Pointless little hitlers persecuting mistakes rather than a useful service. Shame.
Discretion that doesn’t go your way is still discretion. It sounds like you’ve had quite a bit of it in your favour over the years.That “no left” couldn’t be more obvious beyond having an actual bollard in the middle of the carriageway. Most restrictions don’t even have really those obvious red hatched markings showing that it is in fact not a road to drive on.
“Police boy” etc makes you sound like a child.
Wooda80 said:
If this is true and the op went to all that effort in making that op then he is an absolute t
t.What a complete bellend
SmoothCriminal said:
Wooda80 said:
If this is true and the op went to all that effort in making that op then he is an absolute tt.What a complete bellend
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