Roundabout exit collision query

[slamhamster]

Hi all

I was in an RTA on Friday 13th, got clipped and spun exiting a roundabout and writing off my car.

I'm the blue line, third party is green. The insurer is trying to make me accept joint liability on the rather bizarre grounds of there not being any direction arrows in the lanes for that exit.

Regardless of which point they entered the roundabout it does not seem to make sense that anyone would drive across that exit in the left-hand lane. The highway code presumably still applies when there aren't lane arrows.

I did luckily have an independent witness in my favour but I don't know if that will make much difference.


How likely am I to get stung by joint liability?

[chrisch77]

So long as your exit was onto a two way carriageway, and you remained in the right hand lane as you came off the roundabout, I can't see that you should have to accept any liability for the other driver's bellendery.

If he 'clipped you' and caused you to 'spin' then it also suggests that you were in front of the other driver at the point of exiting the roundabout so they really can't have any excuse for not knowing you were there and the danger they were putting you both in by attempting to continue around the roundabout.

If however you were trying to cut in front to make a single lane exit (from what would be the 'wrong' lane on the roundabout) then I could see some form of mitigation for the other party.

[Dan_1981]

Isn't there something to do with even when the other party is in the wrong, the responsibility lies partially with you to make sure the lane you are entering / crossing / move you are making is safe to do?

[chrisch77]

Dan_1981 said:

Isn't there something to do with even when the other party is in the wrong, the responsibility lies partially with you to make sure the lane you are entering / crossing / move you are making is safe to do?

One of the skills of driving without incident is to drive defensively, to avoid being put in danger by the other idiots on the road. In this particular case I think I would be nervous of leaving the roundabout alongside another car 'just in case' they turn out to be an incompetent muppet.

In the OPs defence however, if you were alongside another car you wouldn't be able to see if they had their left hand indicator on to confirm they were indeed planning to leave the roundabout as their road positioning suggested. The best plan of action is either to accelerate or slow down so you are comfortably in front or behind the other car to allow for all eventualities.

[abzmike]

I had a virtually identical collision last September. The other driver was a Canadian tourist in a hire car, (nothing wrong with that), admitted at the roadside he was lost and didn't know what lane he should have been in. Insurance company said vitually all roundabout collisions end up 50-50, as did mine. Your mileage may vary, but don't build up your hopes.

[Riley Blue]

My roundabout rule: unless there are markings or signs to the contrary, always leave a roundabout in the left lane.

[akirk]

slamhamster said:

Hi all

I was in an RTA on Friday 13th, got clipped and spun exiting a roundabout and writing off my car.

I'm the blue line, third party is green. The insurer is trying to make me accept joint liability on the rather bizarre grounds of there not being any direction arrows in the lanes for that exit.

Regardless of which point they entered the roundabout it does not seem to make sense that anyone would drive across that exit in the left-hand lane. The highway code presumably still applies when there aren't lane arrows.

I did luckily have an independent witness in my favour but I don't know if that will make much difference.


How likely am I to get stung by joint liability?

Joint liability seems about right...

you say:

slamhamster said:

The highway code presumably still applies when there aren't lane arrows.

to requote from another thread:

It is not illegal to enter a roundabout from any lane / exit at any junction - it might not be advisable, but not illegal.
It is also legal to circle a roundabout as many times as you like - all day if you wish / don't get dizzy so the car going around in the left lane is not driving illegally...

The highway code is very clear that there are appropriate lanes and you / others should choose appropriately and use the 'correct' lanes Rule 186 - so you are correct there...

however, it does not make this mandatory (HC uses the word 'must' for mandatory)
and makes clear in several rules:
Rule 184 - 'be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you.'
Rule 185 - 'watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all'
Rule 187 - 'In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to... ...traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit / traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly'

overall, there is clarity that while you should be choosing the lane appropriately and that they should also be watching for you - there is a strong emphasis on all users of the roundabout that they hold responsibility for being aware of what others are doing - and there is a clarity / expectation in the HC that other road users may be positioned incorrectly / straddling lanes / crossing in front of you / nor signalling correctly / etc.

so, yes they should choose the 'correct lane' but it is not illegal for them to exit from a different lane, and you also hold responsibility for being aware of what they are doing and allowing for it.

The only way you were hit by that car is because you made an assumption / didn't see what they were doing / didn't aim to exit before or after them as a precaution - and that contributed to the accident...

sorry if that is blunt but the HC is very clear and it is a misconception that lanes on a roundabout follow simple patterns and that you can only exit from those lanes

as a simple example - you enter right lane at 6 o-clock to exit right lane at 12 o-clock on a large roundabout
a slower car enters before / after you left lane at 9 o-clock to exit left lane at 3 o-clock - your paths will cross - neither is right or wrong - you both have to adjust...

TLDR - The Highway Code is clear that all on a roundabout need to take responsibility, and that there is a clear expectation that people might be in the wrong place - therefore insurance will almost always default to shared responsibility because the HC states you both share that responsibility...

[henrycrun]

^ This.

I once found myself in a similar predicament to the OP, trying to exit but had to go around again to avoid crash.
Annoying but event free.

Edited by henrycrun on Monday 16th March 16:27

[covboy]

Riley Blue said:

My roundabout rule: unless there are markings or signs to the contrary, always leave a roundabout in the left lane.

Must admit in this case I would have been in the left hand lane well before the exit. Seems to be a thing in my area where people leaving a roundabout for a dual carriageway will exit into the R/H lane of the dual carrigeway before (eventually) moving left

[jondude]

While there is little doubt he was in the wrong lane to continue as he did, there is indeed a chance you will be held partly responsible as you were in the 'more dangerous' lane yourself for turning left and (the argument is) you need to be 100% sure you can bear left before doing so.

Not accusing you but in the same position as the other chap but turning left I am often caught by surprise at the speed and closeness of those in the same lane as you flying past me - yes, the law is on their side but is it a wise or safe thing to do?

IF there were not lots of cars on the roundabout (making it likewise very dangerous for him to do as he did) then you will find yourself under attack more as they will ask why did you not let him go forwards or across before you started to overtake/exit?

I don't think they are saying he was not mostly responsible, just they are clawing back some cash on the grounds you did nothing to avoid the collision.

[surveyor]

Others have covered it.

As you are driving around always consider what if, and have an escape route.

If you had positioned yourself just in front or just behind the stray renegade you would have had more options.

[jmcc500]

henrycrun said:

^ This.

I once found myself in a similar predicament to the OP, trying to exit but had to go around again to avoid crash.
Annoying but event free.

Edited by henrycrun on Monday 16th March 16:27

I have had this twice on the same roundabout! A24 Southbound, (fast) dual carriageway approach and exit, yet twice within two weeks I had someone decide to turn back northbound from the left lane. Both times I was aware of the risk and was able to steer away from the other car, completing a full lap and a half to get back on track. Have to say it was more 'expected' the second time. Needless to say I am now super-cautious of my positioning relative to the cars around me under those circumstances.

Pic shows my route (red) intended route (dotted red) and the other car's route (cyan):

[unident]

Roundabout collision case law as attached below. This sets precedent all insurance companies are effectively bound by this as any lower court is compelled to follow this reasoning - scroll down if needed

https://www.principia-law.co.uk/road-collision.asp...

[Drawweight]

I was in a similar collision with a First Bus on Sherrifhall roundabout.

It was just my word against his and not going well until we got sent a copy of his statement. I’ve no idea why we got sent it but it certainly came in useful.

He had basically stated that he was in the wrong lane because the roundabout was too narrow for him to be in the correct lane.

Anyone who knows that particular roundabout would know that was rubbish.

So it went 100% in our favour.

Surely if he admitted which lane he was in it should go on your favour as well.

[SMB]

jmcc500 said:

I have had this twice on the same roundabout! A24 Southbound, (fast) dual carriageway approach and exit, yet twice within two weeks I had someone decide to turn back northbound from the left lane. Both times I was aware of the risk and was able to steer away from the other car, completing a full lap and a half to get back on track. Have to say it was more 'expected' the second time. Needless to say I am now super-cautious of my positioning relative to the cars around me under those circumstances.

Pic shows my route (red) intended route (dotted red) and the other car's route (cyan):

Given the weight of traffic on the southbound approach normally, and the fact it’s a prime site for people to u turn after they miss the a24 northbound at the near by great daux roundabout, I would always drive round that assuming that it’s possible someone will go round. It’s also likely northbound traffic will swing round into Horsham without indicating. So always expect the unexpected.

[rambo19]

jmcc500 said:

I have had this twice on the same roundabout! A24 Southbound, (fast) dual carriageway approach and exit, yet twice within two weeks I had someone decide to turn back northbound from the left lane. Both times I was aware of the risk and was able to steer away from the other car, completing a full lap and a half to get back on track. Have to say it was more 'expected' the second time. Needless to say I am now super-cautious of my positioning relative to the cars around me under those circumstances.

Pic shows my route (red) intended route (dotted red) and the other car's route (cyan):

See this everyday now at alot of R/A's.
TBH, I would of been in the inside lane.

[Dagnir]

Does seems like it'll go 50/50. We all have a responsibility to check it's safe for whatever manoeuvre we make.

Seems like you had 2/3s of the roundabout to check your surroundings and move out a lane?

Irritating I know as the other driver clear isn't Senna but thems the breaks.

[silverfoxcc]

Had a few near hits on several roundabouts near here bothe go aorunds from the nearside lane and straightlining and All of them have lane markings and is some cases arrows

Should the unfortunate happen how would the Ins Co view it.?

[meatballs]

slamhamster said:

Hi all

I was in an RTA on Friday 13th, got clipped and spun exiting a roundabout and writing off my car.

I'm the blue line, third party is green. The insurer is trying to make me accept joint liability on the rather bizarre grounds of there not being any direction arrows in the lanes for that exit.

Regardless of which point they entered the roundabout it does not seem to make sense that anyone would drive across that exit in the left-hand lane. The highway code presumably still applies when there aren't lane arrows.

I did luckily have an independent witness in my favour but I don't know if that will make much difference.


How likely am I to get stung by joint liability?

Did they join from 7 o clock? Or the same place as you? If they joined same place as you they're daft. If they joined at 7 o clock you should definitely be more aware.

Either way will probably be joint responsibility imo.

[davek_964]

I had kind of the reverse accident 18 months ago - a lady tried to exit the roundabout from an inside lane and clipped the back of my car (and I was in the correct lane).
When I informed my insurers of what happened, they immediately told me that almost all roundabout accidents end up 50/50 - because she may claim that I was the one who changed lanes. My answer to that was that I had a dashcam which proved I hadn't.

Fortunately, in my case the lady immediately admitted liability to her insurers and they were happy to pay for repairs to the car.

From the picture in the original post, it does look 50/50 to me - regardless of the other party being in the wrong lane, you basically pulled across in front of a car.