One for the solicitors
Discussion
Not sure if this is the right forum,but I,m sure I,ll get the answers.
I,m selling a restored classic to an overseas buyer who is purchasing blind.I have tried to give him a full an honest description with loads of pics also strongly advised him to inspect or have it independently viewed.The price of the car has been reduced by 25% so I think he’s a bit of a chancer.I just don’t want any hassle or come backs.Is there a legally phrased paragraph I could print and e.mail to cover myself.Thanks
Stay Safe.
I,m selling a restored classic to an overseas buyer who is purchasing blind.I have tried to give him a full an honest description with loads of pics also strongly advised him to inspect or have it independently viewed.The price of the car has been reduced by 25% so I think he’s a bit of a chancer.I just don’t want any hassle or come backs.Is there a legally phrased paragraph I could print and e.mail to cover myself.Thanks
Stay Safe.
I am not a solicitor, but try something along the lines set out below. NB, there are no magic words, and nothing is risk free. IAAL but IANYL.
This is an agreement made between X (the seller) and Y (the buyer).
1. The seller agrees to sell and the buyer agrees to buy [describe car and mention any documents, tools, spares etc that are included in the sale] (the car) for £ (the price).
2. The price shall be paid to the seller by [state method, time for payment etc].
3. The buyer shall after making payment of the price arrange to collect the car and have it transported to him at his expense.
4. The car is sold without any warranty as to its condition either express or implied. The buyer acknowledges that he has had the opportunity to have the car inspected on his behalf but has declined to do so.
5. This agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales and any dispute arising from this agreement shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England and Wales.
This is an agreement made between X (the seller) and Y (the buyer).
1. The seller agrees to sell and the buyer agrees to buy [describe car and mention any documents, tools, spares etc that are included in the sale] (the car) for £ (the price).
2. The price shall be paid to the seller by [state method, time for payment etc].
3. The buyer shall after making payment of the price arrange to collect the car and have it transported to him at his expense.
4. The car is sold without any warranty as to its condition either express or implied. The buyer acknowledges that he has had the opportunity to have the car inspected on his behalf but has declined to do so.
5. This agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales and any dispute arising from this agreement shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England and Wales.
Justatwist said:
Where was the car advertised so that someone overseas would see it? Also what car is it? Is it so rare that he couldn’t get one in his own country?
I only ask as you need to be absolutely certain that you’re not being scammed.
Thanks for all advice from all .I really dont see a scam deal, £2k deposit to secure a sale and the balance paid before release of car all by bank transfer.I only ask as you need to be absolutely certain that you’re not being scammed.
The issue for me is a come back ,purchaser not happy with goods and winging about the description although refusing to inspect before purchase.
It’s not a hugely rare or expensive car £32k down to £22k
Thanks for help and opinions
Stay Safe
Some people's scam-o-meters are set way too sensitive - how is the scam supposed to work if the seller has the full asking price in cleared funds in their account before letting the car go? And if that's not good enough to guard against a scam, how on earth would you ever sell a car?
gottans said:
Should the agreement include something along the lines of 'the buyer was advised to have the vehicle independently inspected but declined to do so etc, etc'.
I assume there was nothing in the ad that could be considered inaccurate.
Point 4 in BV's suggested agreement covers that, I think.I assume there was nothing in the ad that could be considered inaccurate.
Roger Irrelevant said:
Some people's scam-o-meters are set way too sensitive - how is the scam supposed to work if the seller has the full asking price in cleared funds in their account before letting the car go? And if that's not good enough to guard against a scam, how on earth would you ever sell a car?
I agree. This does not sound especially scammy to me. I wish I had the buyer's negotiating skills. I have never managed to haggle 25% off the price of any car.
Rompy said:
A reduction from £32k to £22k is 32%. That’s quite a saving on top of the hassle around export etc.
If I was taking that kind of hit it would have to be cash on collection or evidence of all the money in my account before it left my sight. Good luck.
It's even worse than that.If I was taking that kind of hit it would have to be cash on collection or evidence of all the money in my account before it left my sight. Good luck.
OP wanted 45% more than he's getting.
PorkInsider said:
Point 4 in BV's suggested agreement covers that, I think.
It does.BTW, I pondered inserting an entire agreement clause, but decided against it. Such a clause seeks to limit the effect of pre-contractual representations, but the clause tends to be ineffective if a misrepresentation was in fact made and was relied on, and the representation was made fraudulently or carelessly.
A version of the form of words I suggest could be used in any private car sale (you might not bother with the choice of law and jurisdiction clause in a sale between two parties in the same country). I see that in a sticky in General Gassing someone thinks that suggesting such a form of words is pompous, but the words used are plain English, as all good documents intended to have legal effect ought to be. Legalese should be left for barrack room lawyers.
If (not this case) a buyer has seen the car, you could write something like:
"The Car is sold as seen, inspected, and tested by the Buyer and without any express or implied warranty as to its condition and fitness for use." #
In a simple sale made face to face or where the Buyer has shown up to collect after paying, I would write -
"The Buyer acknowledges receipt of the Car. The Seller acknowledges receipt of the Price."
I add that I have bought several cars from private sellers, either paying them before seeing the car, or doing the deal by bank transfer on the spot. Of course I usually see the car first, but I have taken a few punts on eBay and elsewhere without seeing the car. I have never been scammed (as in there being no car, etc), and only one of the unseen cars turned out to be a lot worse than expected, and for that I blame myself and not the seller (over enthusiastic non-drunk eBay bidding).
You can usually get a feel for whether or not a person is honest through the pre-contract negotiations. Before anyone accuses me of being naive, I add that I spend a lot of my working life dealing with frauds, so I am not completely a new born lamb. The world still needs trust, and as long as you are cautious you can usually trust more people than not.
Here's one I prepared earlier. Described by some bizarrely angry person in General Gassing as "self aggrandisement", "threatening", and "pompous arse speak". But you decide.
AGREEMENT
1. This Agreement is made on [date of sale] between [name of seller] (the Seller) and [name of buyer] (the Buyer).
2. The Seller agrees to sell and the Buyer agrees to buy [make and model of vehicle] registration number [registration number of vehicle] together with its tools, equipment, entertainment system, handbook [and the following spare parts: etc. delete or expand as appropriate] (the Car) for £[agreed price] (the Price).
3. The Seller acknowledges receipt of the Price. The Buyer acknowledges receipt of the Car.
4. The Seller warrants and represents to the Buyer that the Seller has unencumbered title to the Car and is entitled to pass that title to the Buyer and that the Car is not subject to any finance agreement or other encumbrance.
5. Otherwise, the Car is sold as seen and tested by the Buyer, without any express or implied warranty as to condition or suitability for purpose.
6. This agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales and the parties submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England and Wales.
Signed and dated (time too if you are worried about speed cameras etc.)
[name of seller]
[name of buyer]
Replace the bits in square brackets and print 2 copies. Both parties sign both and take one copy each.
AGREEMENT
1. This Agreement is made on [date of sale] between [name of seller] (the Seller) and [name of buyer] (the Buyer).
2. The Seller agrees to sell and the Buyer agrees to buy [make and model of vehicle] registration number [registration number of vehicle] together with its tools, equipment, entertainment system, handbook [and the following spare parts: etc. delete or expand as appropriate] (the Car) for £[agreed price] (the Price).
3. The Seller acknowledges receipt of the Price. The Buyer acknowledges receipt of the Car.
4. The Seller warrants and represents to the Buyer that the Seller has unencumbered title to the Car and is entitled to pass that title to the Buyer and that the Car is not subject to any finance agreement or other encumbrance.
5. Otherwise, the Car is sold as seen and tested by the Buyer, without any express or implied warranty as to condition or suitability for purpose.
6. This agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales and the parties submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England and Wales.
Signed and dated (time too if you are worried about speed cameras etc.)
[name of seller]
[name of buyer]
Replace the bits in square brackets and print 2 copies. Both parties sign both and take one copy each.
Breadvan72 said:
Here's one I prepared earlier. Described by some bizarrely angry person in General Gassing as "self aggrandisement", "threatening", and "pompous arse speak". But you decide.
AGREEMENT
1. This Agreement is made on [date of sale] between [name of seller] (the Seller) and [name of buyer] (the Buyer).
2. The Seller agrees to sell and the Buyer agrees to buy [make and model of vehicle] registration number [registration number of vehicle] together with its tools, equipment, entertainment system, handbook [and the following spare parts: etc. delete or expand as appropriate] (the Car) for £[agreed price] (the Price).
3. The Seller acknowledges receipt of the Price. The Buyer acknowledges receipt of the Car.
4. The Seller warrants and represents to the Buyer that the Seller has unencumbered title to the Car and is entitled to pass that title to the Buyer and that the Car is not subject to any finance agreement or other encumbrance.
5. Otherwise, the Car is sold as seen and tested by the Buyer, without any express or implied warranty as to condition or suitability for purpose.
6. This agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales and the parties submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England and Wales.
Signed and dated (time too if you are worried about speed cameras etc.)
[name of seller]
[name of buyer]
Replace the bits in square brackets and print 2 copies. Both parties sign both and take one copy each.
Brilliant and to the point. Some people don’t realise how the more complex you make an agreement, the longer the text, the more there is for some slick lawyer on the other side to play with and try to pull apart, or prove some kind of inherent disadvantage to the buyer. Keeping it as above makes it straightforward and pretty difficult to pick apart, anyone can understand the content, so proving a buyer was disadvantaged by wording would be extremely difficult to prove as he would almost have to prove he was too thick to understand, and then the question over whether the guy needs someone to control his money for him arises!AGREEMENT
1. This Agreement is made on [date of sale] between [name of seller] (the Seller) and [name of buyer] (the Buyer).
2. The Seller agrees to sell and the Buyer agrees to buy [make and model of vehicle] registration number [registration number of vehicle] together with its tools, equipment, entertainment system, handbook [and the following spare parts: etc. delete or expand as appropriate] (the Car) for £[agreed price] (the Price).
3. The Seller acknowledges receipt of the Price. The Buyer acknowledges receipt of the Car.
4. The Seller warrants and represents to the Buyer that the Seller has unencumbered title to the Car and is entitled to pass that title to the Buyer and that the Car is not subject to any finance agreement or other encumbrance.
5. Otherwise, the Car is sold as seen and tested by the Buyer, without any express or implied warranty as to condition or suitability for purpose.
6. This agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales and the parties submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Courts of England and Wales.
Signed and dated (time too if you are worried about speed cameras etc.)
[name of seller]
[name of buyer]
Replace the bits in square brackets and print 2 copies. Both parties sign both and take one copy each.
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