Used car with undisclosed modifications
Discussion
Hypothetical scenario:
If you acquired a used car, the car had history but none that suggested it had been modified. And the vendors unaware and listed without disclosing any modifications.
However, later it transpires the car has had say, a re-map and perhaps a manifold or something that is not obvious to the casual and non professional observer and without documentation would be very difficult to spot.
So you insure the car as a standard car in good faith based on no evidence the contrary.
What would be the scenario in the event of an accident where insurers investigators looked at the car and discovered the car had in fact been modified.
In theory and practice, the Insurnace is void because the car has modifications not disclosed. So any damage to your own car or others is not covered and potentially you are personally liable for.
Plus you're now essentially guilty of driving without insurance and open to prosecution.
Would not being aware be any kind of defence?
If you acquired a used car, the car had history but none that suggested it had been modified. And the vendors unaware and listed without disclosing any modifications.
However, later it transpires the car has had say, a re-map and perhaps a manifold or something that is not obvious to the casual and non professional observer and without documentation would be very difficult to spot.
So you insure the car as a standard car in good faith based on no evidence the contrary.
What would be the scenario in the event of an accident where insurers investigators looked at the car and discovered the car had in fact been modified.
In theory and practice, the Insurnace is void because the car has modifications not disclosed. So any damage to your own car or others is not covered and potentially you are personally liable for.
Plus you're now essentially guilty of driving without insurance and open to prosecution.
Would not being aware be any kind of defence?
I think it would come down to the scenario of the accident.
When I was 18 and thought I was invincible from everything so I didn't declare any mods to my insurance (these were fairly obvious as well with things like, aftermarket wheels, coilovers, exhausts etc) which I thought was a brilliant idea until someone crashed into me. The other party ran a stop sign and t-boned me so it was 100% his liability. When the insurance came to inspect it a bloke came round with an ipad and took 1 picture of it and that was it, when I asked him why he didn't want to inspect it he said that as there was no liability for me all they wanted to do was make sure the car actually existed and was damaged to the extent I had described over the phone.
When I was 18 and thought I was invincible from everything so I didn't declare any mods to my insurance (these were fairly obvious as well with things like, aftermarket wheels, coilovers, exhausts etc) which I thought was a brilliant idea until someone crashed into me. The other party ran a stop sign and t-boned me so it was 100% his liability. When the insurance came to inspect it a bloke came round with an ipad and took 1 picture of it and that was it, when I asked him why he didn't want to inspect it he said that as there was no liability for me all they wanted to do was make sure the car actually existed and was damaged to the extent I had described over the phone.
handbraketurn said:
Hypothetical scenario:
If you acquired a used car, the car had history but none that suggested it had been modified. And the vendors unaware and listed without disclosing any modifications.
However, later it transpires the car has had say, a re-map and perhaps a manifold or something that is not obvious to the casual and non professional observer and without documentation would be very difficult to spot.
So you insure the car as a standard car in good faith based on no evidence the contrary.
What would be the scenario in the event of an accident where insurers investigators looked at the car and discovered the car had in fact been modified.
In theory and practice, the Insurnace is void because the car has modifications not disclosed. So any damage to your own car or others is not covered and potentially you are personally liable for.
Plus you're now essentially guilty of driving without insurance and open to prosecution.
Would not being aware be any kind of defence?
If the buyer and seller didn't know, how would the insurance company find out? If you acquired a used car, the car had history but none that suggested it had been modified. And the vendors unaware and listed without disclosing any modifications.
However, later it transpires the car has had say, a re-map and perhaps a manifold or something that is not obvious to the casual and non professional observer and without documentation would be very difficult to spot.
So you insure the car as a standard car in good faith based on no evidence the contrary.
What would be the scenario in the event of an accident where insurers investigators looked at the car and discovered the car had in fact been modified.
In theory and practice, the Insurnace is void because the car has modifications not disclosed. So any damage to your own car or others is not covered and potentially you are personally liable for.
Plus you're now essentially guilty of driving without insurance and open to prosecution.
Would not being aware be any kind of defence?
I suspect you would have to take it to the ombudsman if the insurers dug their heels in, and be able to show credible evidence (e.g. the original car advert) that showed that the modifications were not listed.
I would imagine and hope that the insurance company would consider the circumstances and simply demand the difference had the modifications been declared, rather than outright voiding the policy from inception.
I can't see how you would be charged with driving without insurance since the Police would be none the wiser about the mods either, if they attended the scene of the accident. Also, as far as MIB would be concerned you would show as insured.
For what it's worth - I had an Audi TTRS with remap and cat bypass pipes and Audi themselves didn't even notice or comment on it, despite having warranty work done on it, so I very much doubt either the Police or an insurance investigator would know what they were looking at on a specific model of car.
I would imagine and hope that the insurance company would consider the circumstances and simply demand the difference had the modifications been declared, rather than outright voiding the policy from inception.
I can't see how you would be charged with driving without insurance since the Police would be none the wiser about the mods either, if they attended the scene of the accident. Also, as far as MIB would be concerned you would show as insured.
For what it's worth - I had an Audi TTRS with remap and cat bypass pipes and Audi themselves didn't even notice or comment on it, despite having warranty work done on it, so I very much doubt either the Police or an insurance investigator would know what they were looking at on a specific model of car.
Most insurance companies would say something akin to "Fitted by you or with your knowledge". I know this creates a lot of grey area so they'll probably have internal policies for such an event. Worth checking policy Ts and Cs though. If it went to court and it was found you had a set of forged pistons, upgraded head bolts or something that would be very difficult for any normal person to identify, I would say that it would be seen as unreasonable for the insurance to expect that to be declared. They may send an inspector round too who would use a professional opinion on whether parts have been there long term or not and may take into account the date you bought the vehicle. A brand new set of shiny coil overs might land you in hot water but a tatty sports cat that's been on the car some time and you've only owned it 3 months might be a different story. Until you get a series of anecdotes it'll be hard to tell.
When you insure a car, you confirm that you've answered all questions to the best of your knowledge. So long as you've done that, and the modification isn't something that could be reasonably spotted, then you're fully covered.
A remap would be fine. If there was nothing on the paperwork and you had no idea. Gullwing doors and a Vauxhall Corsa, not so much.
A remap would be fine. If there was nothing on the paperwork and you had no idea. Gullwing doors and a Vauxhall Corsa, not so much.
I have heard some scare stories that suggest you are technically uninsured but I've also heard stories where the ins company just take into account the mods / difference in premium to solve it should the worst happen. No idea how true either case is as it's never happened to me.
i.e. if it has aftermarket wheels and they get nicked / damaged, the ins co might wriggle out of paying for anything more than the standard steelies the model came with.
or if it had some mods that would have resulted in a larger premium, they might add this to the excess when the claim comes along (if they can figure it out)
but I think it would be pretty tricky for them to wriggle out of insuring you at all for an undeclared chip for example - you as a layperson can not reasonably be expected to know the difference and if the advert no longer exists how can they prove it.
The one that always gets me thinking at renewal time is when it asks about the "factory fit" vs aftermarket fit options - what about the dealer fit options that sometimes get added - technically not insured or fine? how is a 3rd owner supposed to actually know the answer to this - they can't
i.e. if it has aftermarket wheels and they get nicked / damaged, the ins co might wriggle out of paying for anything more than the standard steelies the model came with.
or if it had some mods that would have resulted in a larger premium, they might add this to the excess when the claim comes along (if they can figure it out)
but I think it would be pretty tricky for them to wriggle out of insuring you at all for an undeclared chip for example - you as a layperson can not reasonably be expected to know the difference and if the advert no longer exists how can they prove it.
The one that always gets me thinking at renewal time is when it asks about the "factory fit" vs aftermarket fit options - what about the dealer fit options that sometimes get added - technically not insured or fine? how is a 3rd owner supposed to actually know the answer to this - they can't
NGee said:
maz8062 said:
If the buyer and seller didn't know, how would the insurance company find out?
You could try reading the whole of the post you quoted instead of just the sentence you highlighted.Oh well.
Insurance has always been a minefield regarding mods. 2 prime examples as follows...
Alloy wheels on our Touareg are £1000 each, a nice decent aftermarket set is circa £1000 for the full set. Tick modified alloys and the premium goes up about 15-20-% on my last quote . So me hitting a kerb and damaging a pair of genuine wheels will cost them twice as much as replacing the full set of declared after market wheels ?
Factory exhaust is massive and just the dpf section is £1300, the massive rear silencer got be over a grand all day long plus the rest of the system. A custom made stainless system again less than half the money, but tick modified exhaust and that’s another 20% Sir.
I get certain mods attract certain ‘customers’ shall we say, but there just doesn’t seem any logic to anything they do.
Alloy wheels on our Touareg are £1000 each, a nice decent aftermarket set is circa £1000 for the full set. Tick modified alloys and the premium goes up about 15-20-% on my last quote . So me hitting a kerb and damaging a pair of genuine wheels will cost them twice as much as replacing the full set of declared after market wheels ?
Factory exhaust is massive and just the dpf section is £1300, the massive rear silencer got be over a grand all day long plus the rest of the system. A custom made stainless system again less than half the money, but tick modified exhaust and that’s another 20% Sir.
I get certain mods attract certain ‘customers’ shall we say, but there just doesn’t seem any logic to anything they do.
fastbikes76 said:
Insurance has always been a minefield regarding mods. 2 prime examples as follows...
Alloy wheels on our Touareg are £1000 each, a nice decent aftermarket set is circa £1000 for the full set. Tick modified alloys and the premium goes up about 15-20-% on my last quote . So me hitting a kerb and damaging a pair of genuine wheels will cost them twice as much as replacing the full set of declared after market wheels ?
Factory exhaust is massive and just the dpf section is £1300, the massive rear silencer got be over a grand all day long plus the rest of the system. A custom made stainless system again less than half the money, but tick modified exhaust and that’s another 20% Sir.
I get certain mods attract certain ‘customers’ shall we say, but there just doesn’t seem any logic to anything they do.
There is total logic and cold, hard facts in everything they do. Claim history says that the kind of person that changes their wheels and installs a custom exhaust is the kind of person that has more accidents. So they load your premium. It's really not complex.Alloy wheels on our Touareg are £1000 each, a nice decent aftermarket set is circa £1000 for the full set. Tick modified alloys and the premium goes up about 15-20-% on my last quote . So me hitting a kerb and damaging a pair of genuine wheels will cost them twice as much as replacing the full set of declared after market wheels ?
Factory exhaust is massive and just the dpf section is £1300, the massive rear silencer got be over a grand all day long plus the rest of the system. A custom made stainless system again less than half the money, but tick modified exhaust and that’s another 20% Sir.
I get certain mods attract certain ‘customers’ shall we say, but there just doesn’t seem any logic to anything they do.
deckster said:
There is total logic and cold, hard facts in everything they do. Claim history says that the kind of person that changes their wheels and installs a custom exhaust is the kind of person that has more accidents. So they load your premium. It's really not complex.
And the cost of that accident is higher that just the cheaper components (in your example, wheels and exhaust) AlpineWhite said:
deckster said:
There is total logic and cold, hard facts in everything they do. Claim history says that the kind of person that changes their wheels and installs a custom exhaust is the kind of person that has more accidents. So they load your premium. It's really not complex.
And the cost of that accident is higher that just the cheaper components (in your example, wheels and exhaust) fastbikes76 said:
I
Factory exhaust is massive and just the dpf section is £1300, the massive rear silencer got be over a grand all day long plus the rest of the system. A custom made stainless system again less than half the money, but tick modified exhaust and that’s another 20% Sir.
This must be dependent on insurer, I have just bought a C350 diesel with Akrapovic exhaust. The insurance company said no problem when I told them about the exhaust, no increase to the premium. They did not care about the factory fitted carbon kit either.Factory exhaust is massive and just the dpf section is £1300, the massive rear silencer got be over a grand all day long plus the rest of the system. A custom made stainless system again less than half the money, but tick modified exhaust and that’s another 20% Sir.
deckster said:
There is total logic and cold, hard facts in everything they do. Claim history says that the kind of person that changes their wheels and installs a custom exhaust is the kind of person that has more accidents. So they load your premium. It's really not complex.
Surely a stainless steel exhaust is just a replacement that is bought to give a longer lifespan? If insurers were to go down that route they would start rejecting on the basis of Halfords wiper blades etc.deckster said:
There is total logic and cold, hard facts in everything they do. Claim history says that the kind of person that changes their wheels and installs a custom exhaust is the kind of person that has more accidents. So they load your premium. It's really not complex.
Exactly. A lot of the risk is determined by profiling the driver. A lot of people complain that in some cases, the black box that many young drivers have gives very limited info about the standard of driving. In truth, the job was done by the insurers by attracting drivers that are happy to have a black box. Straight away, they've filtered put 90% of the t
ts. Foss62 said:
deckster said:
There is total logic and cold, hard facts in everything they do. Claim history says that the kind of person that changes their wheels and installs a custom exhaust is the kind of person that has more accidents. So they load your premium. It's really not complex.
Surely a stainless steel exhaust is just a replacement that is bought to give a longer lifespan? If insurers were to go down that route they would start rejecting on the basis of Halfords wiper blades etc.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff