Company or personal property?
Discussion
An employee attended a presentation of test equipment run by a manufacturer and their UK distributor. They were invited as a representative of their employer company and attended on company time.
As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
This occurred about 3 years ago, and the test kit has been in the possession of the employee , who has occasionally loaned it to colleagues.
The employee is leaving.
Who owns the tester? Should the employee hand it over to the employer with their company supplied equipment?
As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
This occurred about 3 years ago, and the test kit has been in the possession of the employee , who has occasionally loaned it to colleagues.
The employee is leaving.
Who owns the tester? Should the employee hand it over to the employer with their company supplied equipment?
quinny100 said:
As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
With no agreement then it's the employee's, imagine if you also asked them for the pen and notepad what response you would get? The value doesn't diminish that it's a gift from from one party to another.I used to work for a company which after the 2010 Bribery Act took legal advice over what free equipment could be handed out to potential clients, ended settling on giving out 32GB memory sticks with the companies logo on (back then it was more than a pound per gigabyte) as it was deemed anything under £50 would be allowed but it was still ok to spend £100+ per head on food and drink which didn't make much sense to me.
Employee.
If yours is the sort of industry where gifts of significant value are given by PRs/etc to people who attend their events, and you want the company/employer to claim possession, then you should have something in the employment contract covering that. Especially if the gifts are used in the performance of the employee's work for the employer.
I used to work in such an industry, and the de facto position was always that the employee owned the gifts, from conference freebies (who doesn't love those mousemats?) to equipment worth well over £1000.
If yours is the sort of industry where gifts of significant value are given by PRs/etc to people who attend their events, and you want the company/employer to claim possession, then you should have something in the employment contract covering that. Especially if the gifts are used in the performance of the employee's work for the employer.
I used to work in such an industry, and the de facto position was always that the employee owned the gifts, from conference freebies (who doesn't love those mousemats?) to equipment worth well over £1000.
NGee said:
So there you are. In true PH style, after just 2 replies you now have a definitive answer! 
To even up the score....I would have thought it is technically the employer's property. However, in practice I don't suppose it has made it to the Company's asset list and most employers wouldn't ask you to leave it behind - or indeed even know about it.
Reason I say employer is; It was given to the employee by a supplier of the company. That employee was attending whilst being paid by the Company. Clearly the supplier has given it to the employee due to their role in their employer's company. They have done this as either a reward for the company's business in the past, or as a sweetner in the hope they get the company's business in the future.
They wouldn't have given it to that employee unless he was representing his company at the event.
Just ask the soon to be ex-employee whether they are prepared to provide an insurance backed Professional Indemnity warranty for the next 12 years for all work certified with "their" test equipment and see how quick they are to hand it over. For added sport ask for calibration and service records. The employer would also do well to remind the remaining staff of their Gifts and Hospitality policy and the Bribery act.
I like a gizzit or a nice dinner as much as the next powerfully built director but dishing out £300 worth of test kit is a bit much IME, both for the individual and their employing company.
I like a gizzit or a nice dinner as much as the next powerfully built director but dishing out £300 worth of test kit is a bit much IME, both for the individual and their employing company.
quinny100 said:
An employee attended a presentation of test equipment run by a manufacturer and their UK distributor. They were invited as a representative of their employer company and attended on company time.
As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
This occurred about 3 years ago, and the test kit has been in the possession of the employee , who has occasionally loaned it to colleagues.
The employee is leaving.
Who owns the tester? Should the employee hand it over to the employer with their company supplied equipment?
What does the Employers gifts & hospitality policy say? It isn't something the vendor has given to the company, it is a gift that has been given to the employee with other branded tat with a view to influence that employees decision making.As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
This occurred about 3 years ago, and the test kit has been in the possession of the employee , who has occasionally loaned it to colleagues.
The employee is leaving.
Who owns the tester? Should the employee hand it over to the employer with their company supplied equipment?
Can't imagine why a company would be that fussed about a basic piece of equipment that has been used occasional, but can't see a realistic chance of them proving ownership.
AngryPartsBloke said:
What does the Employers gifts & hospitality policy say? It isn't something the vendor has given to the company, it is a gift that has been given to the employee with other branded tat with a view to influence that employees decision making.
Can't imagine why a company would be that fussed about a basic piece of equipment that has been used occasional, but can't see a realistic chance of them proving ownership.
This, plus it's unlikely to be listed as an asset by the employer.....Can't imagine why a company would be that fussed about a basic piece of equipment that has been used occasional, but can't see a realistic chance of them proving ownership.
quinny100 said:
An employee attended a presentation of test equipment run by a manufacturer and their UK distributor. They were invited as a representative of their employer company and attended on company time.
As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
This occurred about 3 years ago, and the test kit has been in the possession of the employee , who has occasionally loaned it to colleagues.
The employee is leaving.
Who owns the tester? Should the employee hand it over to the employer with their company supplied equipment?
I am going to run with it belongs to the employee.As an incentive, attendees were given a basic piece of test equipment which would cost around £300. There was no agreement stipulated around these, they were handed out in a bag with a pen and a notepad.
This occurred about 3 years ago, and the test kit has been in the possession of the employee , who has occasionally loaned it to colleagues.
The employee is leaving.
Who owns the tester? Should the employee hand it over to the employer with their company supplied equipment?
My reasoning is that the gift was given directly to the employee, not to the employee's employer with the intention that the employee might use it.
Also, HMRC assumes that gifts given by third party firms to a business's staff are a potentially taxable event.
A couple of thoughts, though: Does it matter? Asking for it back looks petty. If it does matter, perhaps put in all future contracts of employment that all gifts are the property of the employer.
No ideas for a name said:
To even up the score....
I would have thought it is technically the employer's property. However, in practice I don't suppose it has made it to the Company's asset list and most employers wouldn't ask you to leave it behind - or indeed even know about it.
Reason I say employer is; It was given to the employee by a supplier of the company. That employee was attending whilst being paid by the Company. Clearly the supplier has given it to the employee due to their role in their employer's company. They have done this as either a reward for the company's business in the past, or as a sweetner in the hope they get the company's business in the future.
They wouldn't have given it to that employee unless he was representing his company at the event.
That is pretty much as I would see it.I would have thought it is technically the employer's property. However, in practice I don't suppose it has made it to the Company's asset list and most employers wouldn't ask you to leave it behind - or indeed even know about it.
Reason I say employer is; It was given to the employee by a supplier of the company. That employee was attending whilst being paid by the Company. Clearly the supplier has given it to the employee due to their role in their employer's company. They have done this as either a reward for the company's business in the past, or as a sweetner in the hope they get the company's business in the future.
They wouldn't have given it to that employee unless he was representing his company at the event.
A £300 item isn't the same ball park as a £20 logoed pad and pen, or even something less business orientated like a pair pf Binoculars or a golf she bag..
A testing kit, for the employer business doesn't sound very much like a personal item to me.
quinny100 said:
An employee attended a presentation of test equipment run by a manufacturer and their UK distributor. They were invited as a representative of their employer company and attended on company time.
The question I would ask is this: If the company sees it as company property, would the company pay for its replacement if it were to fail or be broken - particularly whilst being used by one of the employees on loan.....
If the answer is no, then it is the employee's if yes, then it is the employers.
Has the relationship with the employee broken down? It seems petty to demand them to hand over a conference gift from THREE YEARS ago. Would there still have been a value to them attending and would they still have done so if this gift had not been there? if so, then the company got what paid for.
Also as said above, gifts of this nature over a certain amount are considered a taxable event by HMRC - strengthening any argument that it belongs to the employee. If indeed they declared it (I know, very unlikely) and therefore paid the tax, would the company be willing to reimburse the tax paid?
Finally - if the employee refuses to hand it over, then what would you do?
If the answer is no, then it is the employee's if yes, then it is the employers.
Has the relationship with the employee broken down? It seems petty to demand them to hand over a conference gift from THREE YEARS ago. Would there still have been a value to them attending and would they still have done so if this gift had not been there? if so, then the company got what paid for.
Also as said above, gifts of this nature over a certain amount are considered a taxable event by HMRC - strengthening any argument that it belongs to the employee. If indeed they declared it (I know, very unlikely) and therefore paid the tax, would the company be willing to reimburse the tax paid?
Finally - if the employee refuses to hand it over, then what would you do?
Why would the employee give it back to the company.
Why is the company bothered about a £300 piece of basic equipment x amount of years after the event.
Does the md/CEO expect the employee to load up a plate at the free buffet not eat any yourself and bring it back to them at the office.
Why is the company bothered about a £300 piece of basic equipment x amount of years after the event.
Does the md/CEO expect the employee to load up a plate at the free buffet not eat any yourself and bring it back to them at the office.
Collectingbrass said:
Just ask the soon to be ex-employee whether they are prepared to provide an insurance backed Professional Indemnity warranty for the next 12 years for all work certified with "their" test equipment and see how quick they are to hand it over. For added sport ask for calibration and service records. The employer would also do well to remind the remaining staff of their Gifts and Hospitality policy and the Bribery act.
I like a gizzit or a nice dinner as much as the next powerfully built director but dishing out £300 worth of test kit is a bit much IME, both for the individual and their employing company.
They are not a certification test device. Essentially you could hand one of these things to the cleaner, tell them where to stick it, and get a set of accurate test results and information emailed to you in about 15 seconds.I like a gizzit or a nice dinner as much as the next powerfully built director but dishing out £300 worth of test kit is a bit much IME, both for the individual and their employing company.
The devices were given out because they are the sort of thing people don't realise they need until they've seen someone using one and how quick and easy it makes things. In that regard the exercise worked very well - several customers have purchased them after seeing it in use. In certain situations they can save a great deal of time.
To clarify, I'm the employee. I have not been asked to give the device back, and don't think I will be. I am genuinely interested as to whether there is a definitive legal position on this sort of thing.
I've already decided I'm going to give it to the lad who started as our apprentice a few years ago and has done very well. He'll appreciate it and it'll make his life easier.
Hol said:
No ideas for a name said:
To even up the score....
I would have thought it is technically the employer's property. However, in practice I don't suppose it has made it to the Company's asset list and most employers wouldn't ask you to leave it behind - or indeed even know about it.
Reason I say employer is; It was given to the employee by a supplier of the company. That employee was attending whilst being paid by the Company. Clearly the supplier has given it to the employee due to their role in their employer's company. They have done this as either a reward for the company's business in the past, or as a sweetner in the hope they get the company's business in the future.
They wouldn't have given it to that employee unless he was representing his company at the event.
That is pretty much as I would see it.I would have thought it is technically the employer's property. However, in practice I don't suppose it has made it to the Company's asset list and most employers wouldn't ask you to leave it behind - or indeed even know about it.
Reason I say employer is; It was given to the employee by a supplier of the company. That employee was attending whilst being paid by the Company. Clearly the supplier has given it to the employee due to their role in their employer's company. They have done this as either a reward for the company's business in the past, or as a sweetner in the hope they get the company's business in the future.
They wouldn't have given it to that employee unless he was representing his company at the event.
A £300 item isn't the same ball park as a £20 logoed pad and pen, or even something less business orientated like a pair pf Binoculars or a golf she bag..
A testing kit, for the employer business doesn't sound very much like a personal item to me.
quinny100 said:
An employee attended a presentation of test equipment run by a manufacturer and their UK distributor. They were invited as a representative of their employer company and attended on company time.
Value doesn't really make a difference. It's a gift to the employee for attending.
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff