Someone's filming your kids - what are your options?
Discussion
I'm not sure if anyone will know the answers to this definitively, but I'm aware that PH is a wide and varied church and there may well be someone in the know!
My understanding is that if you are outside in a public area, anyone is allowed to film anyone else, with or without their knowledge, including kids, and there's not much that can be (legally) done unless someone is pretty much rubbing their crotch and dribbling down their chin or undertaking some full-time stalking.
What happens, though, if someone is filming your kids indoors?
I can see a range of scenarios, but they can probably be broken down into two:
- indoors in a public space - e.g. a pub, a church hall at a fete, a soft-play area, etc.; and
- indoors in a private space - e.g. your house, someone else's house, a private party at a venue, etc.
I am asking mostly with reference to the 'private space' aspects.
More specifically, and as a TL;DR:
- if a guest at the house of a child's parent is filming that child without the child's knowledge or the parent's knowledge; but
- it is not clear to what extent such filming is taking place; and
- it is not clear in what context such filming is taking place (e.g. it is not known whether randomly or at specific times, whether during an activity or just sitting around, or whether clothed or partially unclothed, etc.); and
- it is not clear for what purpose such filming is taking place (e.g. whether for 'comedy' value or with creepy undertones)...
... what options are there as a separated parent from the parent whose house such filming appears to be taking place?
And what are the options if it is not possible to directly confront either the other parent or the third party undertaking such filming due to doing so being likely to create a massive scene and future problems?
At what point would it be prudent to ring the Police and explain the situation, for example?
Is such an action going to risk inflaming things and increasing the long-term risk of harm to the child if the Police do take an interest but find at this point in time only videos that would not be likely to deliver any sort of conviction in court?
This appears a delicate situation but also one with potentially very high consequences if something untoward is happening, and seems to therefore be a situation that needs to somehow be nipped in the bud ASAP.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts or recommendations, gents (and ladies).
My understanding is that if you are outside in a public area, anyone is allowed to film anyone else, with or without their knowledge, including kids, and there's not much that can be (legally) done unless someone is pretty much rubbing their crotch and dribbling down their chin or undertaking some full-time stalking.
What happens, though, if someone is filming your kids indoors?
I can see a range of scenarios, but they can probably be broken down into two:
- indoors in a public space - e.g. a pub, a church hall at a fete, a soft-play area, etc.; and
- indoors in a private space - e.g. your house, someone else's house, a private party at a venue, etc.
I am asking mostly with reference to the 'private space' aspects.
More specifically, and as a TL;DR:
- if a guest at the house of a child's parent is filming that child without the child's knowledge or the parent's knowledge; but
- it is not clear to what extent such filming is taking place; and
- it is not clear in what context such filming is taking place (e.g. it is not known whether randomly or at specific times, whether during an activity or just sitting around, or whether clothed or partially unclothed, etc.); and
- it is not clear for what purpose such filming is taking place (e.g. whether for 'comedy' value or with creepy undertones)...
... what options are there as a separated parent from the parent whose house such filming appears to be taking place?
And what are the options if it is not possible to directly confront either the other parent or the third party undertaking such filming due to doing so being likely to create a massive scene and future problems?
At what point would it be prudent to ring the Police and explain the situation, for example?
Is such an action going to risk inflaming things and increasing the long-term risk of harm to the child if the Police do take an interest but find at this point in time only videos that would not be likely to deliver any sort of conviction in court?
This appears a delicate situation but also one with potentially very high consequences if something untoward is happening, and seems to therefore be a situation that needs to somehow be nipped in the bud ASAP.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts or recommendations, gents (and ladies).
Christ, that's an awful situation to be in as a parent. Presumably this is related to your other threads, and if so, good luck to you and your friend. I genuinely hope things go well and the child involved isn't too badly scarred in the years to come.
I don't know what one could do in this situation but I think I would ask the social workers whether having a confidential conversation is possible, then take it from there. The police should also be able to advise, there should be someone who is the go-to person for safeguarding issues. If you get no joy from either, and only as a last resort, you could try involving the child's GP. They'll hate to get involved, and this isn't really medical, but there will be a safeguarding lead in the practice and they will have the local pathways and information to hand.
Apologies to the GPs for the GANFYD suggestion! Also a doc here and Mrs/Dr QQ is the said safeguarding lead at her practice where she's the senior partner.
I don't know what one could do in this situation but I think I would ask the social workers whether having a confidential conversation is possible, then take it from there. The police should also be able to advise, there should be someone who is the go-to person for safeguarding issues. If you get no joy from either, and only as a last resort, you could try involving the child's GP. They'll hate to get involved, and this isn't really medical, but there will be a safeguarding lead in the practice and they will have the local pathways and information to hand.
Apologies to the GPs for the GANFYD suggestion! Also a doc here and Mrs/Dr QQ is the said safeguarding lead at her practice where she's the senior partner.
Edit: Sorry the below is probably of no use and doesn't really answer the question. I will delete if needs be.
Honestly I'd think it would depend on the situation.
If there was malice involved such as for predatory behaviours then alerting the authorities would be suitable.
If my child was just background in someone else filming their child I wouldn't really mind. Same as if someone was filming something entirely different and my child walked past.
If someone was filming solely my child then I would probably have a quiet word with the person filling just asking what his intentions were and why he has chosen my child in particular. I would probably ask him/her to stop as I don't really see any reason why someone innocently would.
Honestly I'd think it would depend on the situation.
If there was malice involved such as for predatory behaviours then alerting the authorities would be suitable.
If my child was just background in someone else filming their child I wouldn't really mind. Same as if someone was filming something entirely different and my child walked past.
If someone was filming solely my child then I would probably have a quiet word with the person filling just asking what his intentions were and why he has chosen my child in particular. I would probably ask him/her to stop as I don't really see any reason why someone innocently would.
Edited by WonkeyDonkey on Monday 10th August 01:01
haha 
No worries, thank you for asking! 
Thank you also for the suggestions - the social worker involved will not be involved for much longer, it seems, and I think it's too late for such an issue to go into any report, but asking them would seem sensible.
Likewise the Police, but there is a strong desire not to be seen to be 'being dramatic' because that is totally the other side's style and the aim is to look cool, calm and collected in our submissions...
I think our main stress is that flagging these things up as we are getting round to a court hearing could look like (and would be inferred by the barrister as) manipulation of the child to say such things... which is ridiculous when it is the other side doing that sort of stuff! But if we don't flag them up then there might be risk of abuse in the future... but if we do flag them up then the accusation will be that this is all a total fabrication designed to make the other side look bad.
Well, that's the main stress after wondering if the child is being groomed by a paedo in waiting...
I never thought I'd be in the position where I'm asking if we should tell the truth or not, in case doing so makes the truth look like a fantastical lie - but then dealing with a narcissist seems to have this situation come with the territory.
At the moment it is not clear if there is malice or creepiness behind it, or if it's just idle 'amusement' of someone with a phone and apparently not much to be doing with their life, but as its 'behind closed doors' and the person is not related to the child, alarm bells are ringing...
Having a word would be the adult thing to do, definitely, but sadly the person involved in the court stuff is a total child, so having reasoned conversation about anything is all but impossible.
Thanks again, chaps!
No worries, thank you for asking! Thank you also for the suggestions - the social worker involved will not be involved for much longer, it seems, and I think it's too late for such an issue to go into any report, but asking them would seem sensible.
Likewise the Police, but there is a strong desire not to be seen to be 'being dramatic' because that is totally the other side's style and the aim is to look cool, calm and collected in our submissions...
I think our main stress is that flagging these things up as we are getting round to a court hearing could look like (and would be inferred by the barrister as) manipulation of the child to say such things... which is ridiculous when it is the other side doing that sort of stuff! But if we don't flag them up then there might be risk of abuse in the future... but if we do flag them up then the accusation will be that this is all a total fabrication designed to make the other side look bad.
Well, that's the main stress after wondering if the child is being groomed by a paedo in waiting...
I never thought I'd be in the position where I'm asking if we should tell the truth or not, in case doing so makes the truth look like a fantastical lie - but then dealing with a narcissist seems to have this situation come with the territory.
WonkeyDonkey said:
Edit: Sorry the below is probably of no use and doesn't really answer the question. I will delete if needs be.
Honestly I'd think it would depend on the situation.
If there was malice involved such as for predatory behaviours then alerting the authorities would be suitable.
If my child was just background in someone else filming their child I wouldn't really mind. Same as if someone was filming something entirely different and my child walked past.
If someone was filming solely my child then I would probably have a quiet word with the person filling just asking what his intentions were and why he has chosen my child in particular. I would probably ask him/her to stop as I don't really see any reason why someone innocently would.
Thanks for your reply!Honestly I'd think it would depend on the situation.
If there was malice involved such as for predatory behaviours then alerting the authorities would be suitable.
If my child was just background in someone else filming their child I wouldn't really mind. Same as if someone was filming something entirely different and my child walked past.
If someone was filming solely my child then I would probably have a quiet word with the person filling just asking what his intentions were and why he has chosen my child in particular. I would probably ask him/her to stop as I don't really see any reason why someone innocently would.
Edited by WonkeyDonkey on Monday 10th August 01:01
At the moment it is not clear if there is malice or creepiness behind it, or if it's just idle 'amusement' of someone with a phone and apparently not much to be doing with their life, but as its 'behind closed doors' and the person is not related to the child, alarm bells are ringing...
Having a word would be the adult thing to do, definitely, but sadly the person involved in the court stuff is a total child, so having reasoned conversation about anything is all but impossible.
Thanks again, chaps!
My son plays Under 12 football and the coach often gets the parents to record the match. The coach has to ask the other team's permission which suggests that some form of permission is required even when outside / public fields.
Normally the other teams say yes but there have been cases where the other team has said no due to kids in care / abusive relationships.
Normally the other teams say yes but there have been cases where the other team has said no due to kids in care / abusive relationships.
In a public place anyone is allowed to photograph and film children.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
kestral said:
In a public place anyone is allowed to photograph and film children.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
Utter drivel. The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
Terzo123 said:
kestral said:
In a public place anyone is allowed to photograph and film children.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
Utter drivel. The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
Spoke to Mrs/Dr QQ. She said that the reason to activate the safeguarding protocol would be to get a social worker assigned to the child as a matter of urgency so that the claims can be investigated. Since there is a social worker involved already, however long or short they were planning to continue to be involved, the first port of call needs to be the social worker and to be clear that the child is at risk. That should get the relevant pathways and investigation protocols activated. She also said that the police will only get involved if there is concrete evidence, otherwise they'll just pass it on to the social workers too. If the child is making allegations against an identifiable person and a specific crime, then that's good enough. In short, social worker first, police if there is evidence (e.g. a recording) or specific allegations.
What's more, if the intended use of the recording is criminal, then filming in public IS illegal. I'm pretty sure that a 5 knuckle shuffle over the video recording of a minor is criminal so any filming for that purpose is also likely to be criminal. If not, film away, but a civil case could be pursued against you, particularly if the child/person being filmed is an at risk individual (e.g. the relocated partner and children of an abusive husband/father).
kestral said:
In a public place anyone is allowed to photograph and film children.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
Read the OP carefully please. This is about private spaces, NOT public spaces. The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
What's more, if the intended use of the recording is criminal, then filming in public IS illegal. I'm pretty sure that a 5 knuckle shuffle over the video recording of a minor is criminal so any filming for that purpose is also likely to be criminal. If not, film away, but a civil case could be pursued against you, particularly if the child/person being filmed is an at risk individual (e.g. the relocated partner and children of an abusive husband/father).
kestral said:
In a public place anyone is allowed to photograph and film children.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
Sounds like you are trying to defend one of your favourite pastimes.The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
kestral said:
In a public place anyone is allowed to photograph and film children.
The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
This is 100% correct, although many people think it is not. This all came up a few years ago and the current guidance remains:- https://www.theiac.org.uk/resourcesnew/filming-in-...The intention of the person filming or photographing is not relevant in law.
A pedophile is allowed to photograph children the same as a none pedophile is allowed to.
It is not an offence to be a pedophile, and as long as the child is dressed in a non sexualised manner the pedo can film away.
All that matters is were the person is located when filming and the appearence of the child.
Attempting to physically stop a pedo from filming in a public place could result in a prosecution against the person trying to stop the filming.
In defence of photographers everywhere, photographing people without their permission in public places is legal, and can be done for artistic, social, historical reasons. To suggest that everyone who takes street photography is a sexual deviant is just a reflection on society.
Edited by mr rusty on Monday 10th August 11:18
Edited by mr rusty on Monday 10th August 11:20
QuickQuack said:
Read the OP carefully please. This is about private spaces, NOT public spaces.
What's more, if the intended use of the recording is criminal, then filming in public IS illegal. I'm pretty sure that a 5 knuckle shuffle over the video recording of a minor is criminal so any filming for that purpose is also likely to be criminal. If not, film away, but a civil case could be pursued against you, particularly if the child/person being filmed is an at risk individual (e.g. the relocated partner and children of an abusive husband/father).
The OP say's indoors(?)What's more, if the intended use of the recording is criminal, then filming in public IS illegal. I'm pretty sure that a 5 knuckle shuffle over the video recording of a minor is criminal so any filming for that purpose is also likely to be criminal. If not, film away, but a civil case could be pursued against you, particularly if the child/person being filmed is an at risk individual (e.g. the relocated partner and children of an abusive husband/father).
Indoors can be a public space or private space or sud public place.
In public place film away no permission required
In pseudo public place, shopping center ect filming allowed unless signs or information on display to restrict filming/ photography.
In/on private property permission is required. If breached it is a civil action for damages.
Children cannot be photographed/filmed if dressed/ arranged / depicted in a sexualised manner. Any other appearance has no restriction.
It is legal to photograph/ film from a public photpath into someones house through their front window. what matters is the loaction of the photographer/cameraman.
That should get the usual suspects googling. "He must be wrong"
Terzo123 said:
More nonsense.
Other legislation can be used depending on circumstances.
He's not wrong - 100% correct! what "other legislation". The law is exactly as Terzo123 describes it. Anyone who wanders around with a real camera these days (rather than a phone camera) is usually well aware of the legal situation because Jo Public have a misconception the law prevents things that are actually 100% legal!Other legislation can be used depending on circumstances.
However, I agree this is OT, because the OP's question is about someone filming their kids in a private place. Personally, I think if the ex-partner has given permission, there is nothing can be done unless their is additional evidence.
What actual evidence is there of filming for other than “normal” family situations such as a child singing, dancing whilst watching tv and joining in (as an example.
Has the child said anything about the scenario being something outside that situation? Were they coerced/ persuaded to act in a not normal way?
Have you seen any films or photographs?
Have you noticed any behaviour/comments to raise suspicion from those filming or the child?
Who exactly is filming and do you have reservations about them?
Social Services would be the first port of call to discuss it. Give them names of people involved for checks etc.
The key factor is to be clear in your mind that you have genuine suspicions and not seeing things that are not there or looking for reasons to use in court cases for access.
Unfortunately children can and have been used as pawns in disputes out of spite and courts will recognise this.
The bottom line is the safety of the child. Too many “adults” put their opinions, malice, spite, taunting, threats before that basic child.
I am not saying you, the OP, is doing that but if you fears then go forward with them. It is the child that should be the focus.
Has the child said anything about the scenario being something outside that situation? Were they coerced/ persuaded to act in a not normal way?
Have you seen any films or photographs?
Have you noticed any behaviour/comments to raise suspicion from those filming or the child?
Who exactly is filming and do you have reservations about them?
Social Services would be the first port of call to discuss it. Give them names of people involved for checks etc.
The key factor is to be clear in your mind that you have genuine suspicions and not seeing things that are not there or looking for reasons to use in court cases for access.
Unfortunately children can and have been used as pawns in disputes out of spite and courts will recognise this.
The bottom line is the safety of the child. Too many “adults” put their opinions, malice, spite, taunting, threats before that basic child.
I am not saying you, the OP, is doing that but if you fears then go forward with them. It is the child that should be the focus.
QuickQuack said:
Spoke to Mrs/Dr QQ. She said that the reason to activate the safeguarding protocol would be to get a social worker assigned to the child as a matter of urgency so that the claims can be investigated. Since there is a social worker involved already, however long or short they were planning to continue to be involved, the first port of call needs to be the social worker and to be clear that the child is at risk. That should get the relevant pathways and investigation protocols activated. She also said that the police will only get involved if there is concrete evidence, otherwise they'll just pass it on to the social workers too. If the child is making allegations against an identifiable person and a specific crime, then that's good enough. In short, social worker first, police if there is evidence (e.g. a recording) or specific allegations.
Many thanks for asking and reporting back! I can appreciate the Police's position.
To summarise the situation, the child in question has said to the parent they live with that they caught the third part filming them at the other parent's house.
The person doing the filming is a regular visitor to the other party's home and, as I understand it, the parent's partner.
This person has been absent during recent Social Services investigations undertaken as part of a Care Arrangements Order process.
I am not yet aware of the situations that filming has taken place (in terms of room, clothing, etc.) so I'm not sure there has been a specific crime committed as such with the filming? Unless not asking permission of the child would make it a crime?
The child has mentioned in the past that this person has hurt them during play - such as by holding too tightly and refusing to let go - but this has not been flagged to any authorities by the concerned parent because of the fear it is difficult to prove, and because raising the issue might inflame the situation that exists between the current 'lives with' parent and the (mentally unbalanced, IMO) parent whose house the child is visiting. (At the time this was mentioned by the child, the child was living with this unbalanced parent, and the other parent feared all contact being refused if he 'rocked the boat'.)
The concerned parent has now contacted Social Services for guidance, thank you for the advice
and I believe they are going to refer it back to the Social Worker who has been undertaken the court-ordered assessments. I'm not sure what will happen now but I presume the Social Worker will have to 'make a judgement call' following one or more meetings with the child?It is a ridiculous situation to be in that telling the truth makes one parent fear they will lose contact with the child because the other parent is a mentalist and will just flat-out lie to try to 'win' over the concerned parent.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Monday 10th August 14:04
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