Letting Agent Check out fees.
Discussion
A quick Google suggests these are illegal but shady agents continue to charge them because it's not well enforced.
My step daughter has a student rental house in Belfast and is moving to another for next year. Her letting agent is asking for a "check out" fee to end the tenancy. (tenancy period hasn't changed, coming to it's agreed end)
In Northern Ireland there was a Commission on the Disposal of land Order (NI) 1986 Order and a more recent ruling (2017-18) suggesting these fees charge by agents for doing things for the landlord should not be passed to the tenant. Similar to rather more recent and explicit legislation in England.
Any advice on how I should approach this.
My step daughter has a student rental house in Belfast and is moving to another for next year. Her letting agent is asking for a "check out" fee to end the tenancy. (tenancy period hasn't changed, coming to it's agreed end)
In Northern Ireland there was a Commission on the Disposal of land Order (NI) 1986 Order and a more recent ruling (2017-18) suggesting these fees charge by agents for doing things for the landlord should not be passed to the tenant. Similar to rather more recent and explicit legislation in England.
Any advice on how I should approach this.
You have the tenant fee Act 2019 in England which makes any charges to a tenant illegal unless its a set fee within the Act. ie loss of keys/change to the TA. So a checkout fee would be illegal under this act. BUT as you have alluded to Im not sure if this applies to NI. from your research it sounds like it doesnt.
What was in her original paperwork about this fee?
What was in her original paperwork about this fee?
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 13th August 08:04
hutchst said:
I know nothing about NI law, but the effective date for the application of new legislation is probably tied to the date that the tenancy agreement was signed, not when it ended, which might be relevant.
its any fees charged after the Act came into force even if agreed in paperwork before the Act.superlightr said:
hutchst said:
I know nothing about NI law, but the effective date for the application of new legislation is probably tied to the date that the tenancy agreement was signed, not when it ended, which might be relevant.
its any fees charged after the Act came into force even if agreed in paperwork before the Act.The ban on tenant fees applies to new or renewed tenancy agreements signed on or after 1 June 2019.
Hungry Pigeon said:
superlightr said:
hutchst said:
I know nothing about NI law, but the effective date for the application of new legislation is probably tied to the date that the tenancy agreement was signed, not when it ended, which might be relevant.
its any fees charged after the Act came into force even if agreed in paperwork before the Act.The ban on tenant fees applies to new or renewed tenancy agreements signed on or after 1 June 2019.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 13th August 11:29
Hungry Pigeon said:
superlightr said:
hutchst said:
I know nothing about NI law, but the effective date for the application of new legislation is probably tied to the date that the tenancy agreement was signed, not when it ended, which might be relevant.
its any fees charged after the Act came into force even if agreed in paperwork before the Act.The ban on tenant fees applies to new or renewed tenancy agreements signed on or after 1 June 2019.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Hungry Pigeon is correct. No Act of Parliament can be back-dated, therefore it can only apply to new tenancy agreements made/signed after 1st June last year. Previous agreements are contractually binding.
We have taken legal advice on this -A fee that was contractually agreed with a tenant say in 2015 a checkout fee its now viewed as likely to be an illegal to charge them on vacating after June 2019another example - start of tenancy say 2015 clause in the TA - a tenant is required to pay for the cleaning and fumigation of a property when they vacate if the owner allows them to have pets. - We can not longer require them to do this as its an illegal charge. We can make a charge if there are fleas or they dont leave it clean but not automatically carry this out as a precaution.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 13th August 12:27
Starfighter said:
Surely they land lord would just claim some cleaning related issue and withhold the fee from the deposit it the above case.
exactly but to have an auto fee as a precaution even if contractually agreed is not allowed. Often with fleas you dont know if they are there untill a new tenant moves in which is why having it automatically fumigated at the end of tenancy at the tenants expense was written into the TA as a condition. so we now just increase the rent if they want a pet to cover the cost at the end.
any fees that were charged to a tenant for referencing is now moved over to an increase in rent which actually is cost neutral for the 1st year but cost the tenant more in the 2nd.
The risk of charging a fee to a tenant is so punitive now its too risky to do. There are different trigger points for different aspects even if a TA rolls over on periodic or a new TA issued, or new rent.
superlightr said:
We have taken legal advice on this -A fee that was contractually agreed with a tenant say in 2015 a checkout fee its now viewed as likely to be an illegal to charge them on vacating after June 2019
another example - start of tenancy say 2015 clause in the TA - a tenant is required to pay for the cleaning and fumigation of a property when they vacate if the owner allows them to have pets. - We can not longer require them to do this as its an illegal charge. We can make a charge if there are fleas or they dont leave it clean but not automatically carry this out as a precaution.
I suggest you change your legal adviser. It can only apply to tenancies signed/commencing on or after June 1st 2019, no ifs or buts. It is never possible to back date legislation, therefore any contracts signed before the effective date are fully legal and enforceable.another example - start of tenancy say 2015 clause in the TA - a tenant is required to pay for the cleaning and fumigation of a property when they vacate if the owner allows them to have pets. - We can not longer require them to do this as its an illegal charge. We can make a charge if there are fleas or they dont leave it clean but not automatically carry this out as a precaution.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 13th August 12:27
KevinCamaroSS said:
superlightr said:
We have taken legal advice on this -A fee that was contractually agreed with a tenant say in 2015 a checkout fee its now viewed as likely to be an illegal to charge them on vacating after June 2019
another example - start of tenancy say 2015 clause in the TA - a tenant is required to pay for the cleaning and fumigation of a property when they vacate if the owner allows them to have pets. - We can not longer require them to do this as its an illegal charge. We can make a charge if there are fleas or they dont leave it clean but not automatically carry this out as a precaution.
I suggest you change your legal adviser. It can only apply to tenancies signed/commencing on or after June 1st 2019, no ifs or buts. It is never possible to back date legislation, therefore any contracts signed before the effective date are fully legal and enforceable.another example - start of tenancy say 2015 clause in the TA - a tenant is required to pay for the cleaning and fumigation of a property when they vacate if the owner allows them to have pets. - We can not longer require them to do this as its an illegal charge. We can make a charge if there are fleas or they dont leave it clean but not automatically carry this out as a precaution.
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 13th August 12:27
https://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/housing_optio...
"When the prohibition takes effect
The Act came into force on 1 June 2019.[7]
From 1 June 2020, the ban on fees applies to the following agreements regardless of their start date:[8]
all private rented sector ASTs
licences
student lettings
Any term in an agreement requiring the payment of a prohibited fee will not be binding on a relevant person.
Between 1 June 2019 and 31 May 2020 the prohibition applied only to tenancies that started or were renewed on or after 1 June 2019.[9] It did not apply to statutory periodic tenancies arising between 1 June 2019 and 31 May 2020."
Making certain terms in a pre-existing contract illegal from a certain date in the future onwards is not retrospective or backdated legislation. Requiring redress for a previously legal but now illegal contractual term to compensate for inequity during the period legality would be retrospective legislation. Each piece of legislation defines what happens to pre-existing circumstances, such as contractual terms, and they can either be enforced but can no longer be entered into in new agreements or extensions, or they may become null and void. Neither of those is retroactive or backdated. If, on the other hand, the legislation is such that not only do preexisting terms become null and void, but all fees paid under these contractual terms must be repaid, that would be a backdated or retrospective legislation.
I suspect superlightr's legal adviser is 100% correct.
If the Houses of Parliament approve it in the correct manner, any piece of legislation can be retrospective. There is no act of parliament and no legal precedent which prohibits the use of retrospective legislation. Even if there was, the Houses of Parliament would be able to repeal it and then approve retrospective legislation.
I suspect superlightr's legal adviser is 100% correct.
If the Houses of Parliament approve it in the correct manner, any piece of legislation can be retrospective. There is no act of parliament and no legal precedent which prohibits the use of retrospective legislation. Even if there was, the Houses of Parliament would be able to repeal it and then approve retrospective legislation.
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to have a word with the letting agent. The words "illegal", "fraud" and "Letting Protection Service" may feature heavily. I've also been advised that if they continue to insist on it I should get a written request out of them explicitly saying that it's a check out fee and a receipt.
It appears to me that all of the opinions that you have been offered here relate to English law. NI might well be the same, but might not. If it was me I would check before potentially embarassing myself. It would be prudent to start from the position that a Northern Irish letting agent probably knows more about Northern Irish letting legislation than you do, and certainly knows more than me.
But what I do know is that the rules are certainly different in Scotland, and in Wales.
But what I do know is that the rules are certainly different in Scotland, and in Wales.
That might well be, but a) despite what you might find on google, county court judgements are not binding on anybody or anything, b) that particular judgement was related only to fees paid at the start of a tenancy and your claim is for fess charged at the end, and c) the legislation being quoted in here doesn't apply in Northern Ireland.
I said at the outset that I claim no knowledge of Northern Irish law, but from what I can see at a quick glance there is neither legislation nor precedent to support your allegations of fraud.
If you do want to go further with this you definitely need to get advice from a lawyer in NI first.
I said at the outset that I claim no knowledge of Northern Irish law, but from what I can see at a quick glance there is neither legislation nor precedent to support your allegations of fraud.
If you do want to go further with this you definitely need to get advice from a lawyer in NI first.
Hmm. You read the article closely enough to ascertain that it was for fees at the start of a tenancy but apparently not enough to notice it was a Belfast court and references the NI Order I've been chuntering on about.
I'll be taking the stance that fees are fees. Start or end of tenancy still fees.
I'll be taking the stance that fees are fees. Start or end of tenancy still fees.
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