A little land grab? Boundary questions
Discussion
Near my house is a patch of land that's very overgrown and hasn't been used by anyone for a very long time, apart from a few people dumping rubbish on it from the alley.
I've had a look at the land registry, and found there is a big gap in the boundaries around it, about 4m wide.
On the diagram, the red lines show the land registry boundaries - A is mine, B is my neighbour's, and C belongs to the council (bought in the 90's to allow the far end of it to be made into a pathway).
As it's adjoining the alleyway it could be very useful for me for parking and unloading, as the rest of my house has no parking.
So I have 2 questions -
1. Seeing as it's not marked as belonging to anyone, does it belong to the crown/public or anything weird like that?
2. As it doesn't belong to either my neighbour (who has high walls as his boundary) or the council (who have never cleared it or removed the rubbish on their bit) - can I just start using it, and eventually try and claim it as mine?
There are no physical boundaries or marks between my bit, the council's bit or this mystery bit.
I've had a look at the land registry, and found there is a big gap in the boundaries around it, about 4m wide.
On the diagram, the red lines show the land registry boundaries - A is mine, B is my neighbour's, and C belongs to the council (bought in the 90's to allow the far end of it to be made into a pathway).
As it's adjoining the alleyway it could be very useful for me for parking and unloading, as the rest of my house has no parking.
So I have 2 questions -
1. Seeing as it's not marked as belonging to anyone, does it belong to the crown/public or anything weird like that?
2. As it doesn't belong to either my neighbour (who has high walls as his boundary) or the council (who have never cleared it or removed the rubbish on their bit) - can I just start using it, and eventually try and claim it as mine?
There are no physical boundaries or marks between my bit, the council's bit or this mystery bit.
Just because it's unregistered doesn't mean nobody owns it; it just means that there haven't been any dealings with it since registration on a disposition became compulsory, and thus there isn't an entry for it at Land Registry.
Basically what you need to do is fence it off such that it forms part of your land and maintain it for the requisite period of time - 12 years (or 30 if it turns out to be owned by a public body). At that point you can apply for possessory title from Land Registry - think of that as the land being provisionally yours. If you get it then after another 12 years you can apply for your possessory title to be upgraded to absolute title (which is what you want as then nobody can take it off you). There's no quick or easy way to do it, so you may as well start now!
Basically what you need to do is fence it off such that it forms part of your land and maintain it for the requisite period of time - 12 years (or 30 if it turns out to be owned by a public body). At that point you can apply for possessory title from Land Registry - think of that as the land being provisionally yours. If you get it then after another 12 years you can apply for your possessory title to be upgraded to absolute title (which is what you want as then nobody can take it off you). There's no quick or easy way to do it, so you may as well start now!
Edited by Roger Irrelevant on Friday 21st August 18:56
Roger Irrelevant said:
Just because it's unregistered doesn't mean nobody owns it; it just means that there haven't been any dealings with it since registration on a disposition became compulsory, and thus there isn't an entry for it at Land Registry.
Basically what you need to do is fence it off such that it forms part of your land and maintain it for the requisite period of time - 12 years (or 30 if it turns out to be owned by a public body). At that point you can apply for possessory title from Land Registry. If you get it then after another 12 years you can apply for your possessory title to be upgraded to absolute title (which is what you want). There's no quick or rasy eay to do it, so you may as well start now!
Thanks, is this possessory title likely to be granted? Presumably as long as someone else doesn't turn up with a 100 year old set of deeds for it or something?Basically what you need to do is fence it off such that it forms part of your land and maintain it for the requisite period of time - 12 years (or 30 if it turns out to be owned by a public body). At that point you can apply for possessory title from Land Registry. If you get it then after another 12 years you can apply for your possessory title to be upgraded to absolute title (which is what you want). There's no quick or rasy eay to do it, so you may as well start now!
How would I go about proving how long it's been used by me for?
Plymo said:
Thanks, is this possessory title likely to be granted? Presumably as long as someone else doesn't turn up with a 100 year old set of deeds for it or something?
How would I go about proving how long it's been used by me for?
Document your occupation of the land as well as you can - take pictures of the fencing going up, note the date, keep receipts for the fence/gates etc. No need to keep a log of every time you mow the grass but a record of any improvements plus a pic each year that shows you are using/maintaining the land will all help. There's no real reason why possessory title wouldn't be granted in the absence of anybody else staking a claim - by the sounds of things the true owner isn't obvious, it's not much use to anybody else and it's not like you're claiming hectares upon hectares. How would I go about proving how long it's been used by me for?
It will be a little while yet as I've only lived here for 3 years so it isn't urgent - it's definitely a weird grey area though.
There is a fence along C's boundary, buried under 6ft brambles but no fence between mine and this odd patch.
I've seen it's possible to amend boundaries, presumably if B and C don't object then would that work, or is it intended for disputes over who maintains a wall and that sort of thing?
There is a fence along C's boundary, buried under 6ft brambles but no fence between mine and this odd patch.
I've seen it's possible to amend boundaries, presumably if B and C don't object then would that work, or is it intended for disputes over who maintains a wall and that sort of thing?
Plymo said:
I've seen it's possible to amend boundaries, presumably if B and C don't object then would that work, or is it intended for disputes over who maintains a wall and that sort of thing?
You won't "amend the boundaries" at this stage, you just need to fence off the alleyway part and then start using that wedge as your own (clear the branbles, seed grass or something if it's rough). If somebody objects and claims ownership then you apologise and put up new fence up along your titled boundary, if not then you have free use of the land until whenever.Yes that 'recent legislation' was the Land Registration Act 2002 (which in fairness actually came into force in October 2003). Even a dunce like me on the SP&L forum can keep sufficiently abreast of legal developments to take that one into account. Anyway the LRA 2002 didn't affect adverse possession in cases of unregistered land. I am now off to have a listen to a popular beat combo called the Beatles that have been causing a stir recently.
Plymo said:
It will be a little while yet as I've only lived here for 3 years so it isn't urgent - it's definitely a weird grey area though.
There is a fence along C's boundary, buried under 6ft brambles but no fence between mine and this odd patch.
I've seen it's possible to amend boundaries, presumably if B and C don't object then would that work, or is it intended for disputes over who maintains a wall and that sort of thing?
The 3 years won't count as you need to prove exclusive access. As it stands you can't prove no-one has wandered across it. First step is to fence, often that act will start seeing challenges from others so might be worth alerting your neighbour first, becuase if he objects then you cannot claim it.There is a fence along C's boundary, buried under 6ft brambles but no fence between mine and this odd patch.
I've seen it's possible to amend boundaries, presumably if B and C don't object then would that work, or is it intended for disputes over who maintains a wall and that sort of thing?
DaveH23 said:
A friend's parents done something similar with their property. They own a large bungalow surrounded on all sides by council owned land.
Around 10 years maybe more ago, he picked up his fence on all sides and pushed it out by 2 or 3 metres.
To this day he hasn't been challenged.
"Council-owned" is not the same as "can't find a registered owner". Around 10 years maybe more ago, he picked up his fence on all sides and pushed it out by 2 or 3 metres.
To this day he hasn't been challenged.
Why not spend a couple of weekends out there clearing brambles, removing any waste,etc and just make it usable. Just being out there means you can talk to anyone who may ask what's going on. Then park a car on it and see what happens after a few weeks.
That way you can get a feel for the neighbours reactions and you haven't wasted any money on a fence you might have to remove.
Then, if after a few weeks everything seems OK, go for the fence option as other posters have suggested.
That way you can get a feel for the neighbours reactions and you haven't wasted any money on a fence you might have to remove.
Then, if after a few weeks everything seems OK, go for the fence option as other posters have suggested.
NGee said:
Why not spend a couple of weekends out there clearing brambles, removing any waste,etc and just make it usable. Just being out there means you can talk to anyone who may ask what's going on. Then park a car on it and see what happens after a few weeks.
That way you can get a feel for the neighbours reactions and you haven't wasted any money on a fence you might have to remove.
Then, if after a few weeks everything seems OK, go for the fence option as other posters have suggested.
I think that's exactly what I'll do! That way you can get a feel for the neighbours reactions and you haven't wasted any money on a fence you might have to remove.
Then, if after a few weeks everything seems OK, go for the fence option as other posters have suggested.
I've already cleared a narrow path through it to move materials for clearing and landscaping the bit that's definitely mine - and no one has complained so far - so I shall work on enlarging it, gradually.
I think my neighbours already reckon I'm insane anyway, there's probably a thread about me on a forum somewhere wondering what I'm doing
There's loads of projects going on, then I disappear for weeks at a time. I do avoid noise and power tools most of the time though
If you live on a housing estate it probably belongs to whoever developed it; not showing up on the land register's web portal means it dates back beyond the current digitised records. In Scotland that's the Register of Sasines, which is how property transactions were recorded prior to 1979, no doubt something similar exists in englandshire. An enquiry to the land register to find the owner and offer them some money for what is low value land seems like a more expedient way of proceeding than fencing it off and twiddling your thumbs for 12 years.
Edited by hidetheelephants on Monday 24th August 15:33
But the thing about unregistered land is...it's not registered. So Land Registry won't really be able to help. If the OP wants to go down the route of finding the owner, which certainly would offer the quickest way of getting hold of the land if they want to sell at a reasonable price, then the best place to start would seem to be whoever the council bought their bit off in the 90s, which the council shoul? hopefully be able to confirm.
Edit: just thinking, OP in your diagram who owns the land above plots A and C? I.e. at the top of the diagram?
Edit: just thinking, OP in your diagram who owns the land above plots A and C? I.e. at the top of the diagram?
The line along the top above all the plots is a river.
I have considered buying C, but it doesn't actually touch the boundary of my land so I would still have to do a little land grab anyway!
Also I doubt the council care about their patch, it was only bought to allow them to make a few paths on the far end of it.
So if I go around asking if they will sell it might mean them looking to see what I've been up to or questioning my exact boundaries.
As I've already started clearing it I'll just carry on, slowly, and take care not to inconvenience anyone. It seems if no one complains then I can just use it
I have considered buying C, but it doesn't actually touch the boundary of my land so I would still have to do a little land grab anyway!
Also I doubt the council care about their patch, it was only bought to allow them to make a few paths on the far end of it.
So if I go around asking if they will sell it might mean them looking to see what I've been up to or questioning my exact boundaries.
As I've already started clearing it I'll just carry on, slowly, and take care not to inconvenience anyone. It seems if no one complains then I can just use it
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