Question for the BiB - sirens and going through red lights
Discussion
Something I've been mulling over and would like some clarification on.
I was sat in the right hand lanes of a three lane road waiting at the red lights when a police car with lights and sirens comes barelling up behind me. Here, actually:
https://goo.gl/maps/qvRwKUgA4dvAKNZU7
Pretty much where the white car is.
Large queues of traffic in the other two lanes, but just me in the right hand lane for whatever reason. Police car with lights and sirens storms up behind me, clearly looking to get past. Should I have gone through the red light to get out of the way? The curbs and cars to my left and right mean I couldn't shuffle to the left or right, forward and into the traffic turning across the road in front of me was my only option.
Is it acceptable to break the rules of the road for an emergency vehicle? The way I see it is leaving aside (not so) common sense for the moment I am not trained adequately to decide whether breaking the rules of the road is safe in this instance, and would be liable should someone crash into me. I can just imagine how the discussion with the insurance company would go.
After much gesticulating from the car behind I pointed out of the window to the red light and the sirens were turned off but the lights kept on. When the traffic lights went green I pulled out of the way ASAP.
Thoughts on what I should do if I find myself in this situation again?
I was sat in the right hand lanes of a three lane road waiting at the red lights when a police car with lights and sirens comes barelling up behind me. Here, actually:
https://goo.gl/maps/qvRwKUgA4dvAKNZU7
Pretty much where the white car is.
Large queues of traffic in the other two lanes, but just me in the right hand lane for whatever reason. Police car with lights and sirens storms up behind me, clearly looking to get past. Should I have gone through the red light to get out of the way? The curbs and cars to my left and right mean I couldn't shuffle to the left or right, forward and into the traffic turning across the road in front of me was my only option.
Is it acceptable to break the rules of the road for an emergency vehicle? The way I see it is leaving aside (not so) common sense for the moment I am not trained adequately to decide whether breaking the rules of the road is safe in this instance, and would be liable should someone crash into me. I can just imagine how the discussion with the insurance company would go.
After much gesticulating from the car behind I pointed out of the window to the red light and the sirens were turned off but the lights kept on. When the traffic lights went green I pulled out of the way ASAP.
Thoughts on what I should do if I find myself in this situation again?
As I understand it you can pass a red if instructed to by a police officer?
Whether a police car sitting behind you with lights/ sirens going constitutes that, or whether one of them would have to get out and verbally instruct you to pass the light is another question.
Fire/ Ambulance cannot instruct you to pass and in my experience do tend to kill sirens/ lights and hang back in that situation.
Whether a police car sitting behind you with lights/ sirens going constitutes that, or whether one of them would have to get out and verbally instruct you to pass the light is another question.
Fire/ Ambulance cannot instruct you to pass and in my experience do tend to kill sirens/ lights and hang back in that situation.
Dg504 said:
I used to ride through here everyday and obviously every set of lights/situation is different but couldn’t you have moved forward and over to the left in front of the already stopped traffic?
I could have done so apart from the existing traffic was already stopped halfway over the white line anyway leaving me nowhere to go!Thanks for the responses guys - found this which suggests it is OK although it does leave things slightly ambiguous:
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q699.htm
The Website said:
If you cross the stop line at the junction whilst the lights are on red, you will commit the offence of contravening a red traffic light. However, if there is an emergency vehicle behind you with its emergency warning signals on it might be possible for you to manoeuvre out of the way to allow it through. Ideally this should be to the side of the road without encroaching into the main area of the junction. It should only be done when it is safe to do so without putting yourself or other members of the public in danger and it should only be done slowly and carefully.
It is important to remember that in committing the offence (crossing the stop line) the onus will be on you to provide evidence that you did so to allow an emergency vehicle through, and this may be considered as mitigation.
It is important to remember that in committing the offence (crossing the stop line) the onus will be on you to provide evidence that you did so to allow an emergency vehicle through, and this may be considered as mitigation.
Dont go through on red - sit tight and do what you can to clear the officers path as soon as they go to Green. If theres a camera on the lights youll be captured doing so,and cop the points and fine or you cause an accident by passing on red then you will commit an offence. Officers know not to force cars tp pass through red lights
I would always go through a red light to allow and emergency service vehicle through. Whatever they're going to is much more important than the 0.2% chance I may get a fine.
As stated by the OP if the officers were gesturing you to move, that would be enough of a defence in court as a Police officer directed you through... Not that this would ever reach a court room.
As stated by the OP if the officers were gesturing you to move, that would be enough of a defence in court as a Police officer directed you through... Not that this would ever reach a court room.
HantsRat said:
I would always go through a red light to allow and emergency service vehicle through. Whatever they're going to is much more important than the 0.2% chance I may get a fine.
As stated by the OP if the officers were gesturing you to move, that would be enough of a defence in court as a Police officer directed you through... Not that this would ever reach a court room.
I would have agreed with you but I've seen that people have bee prosecuted and I'm not risking getting points so now I wouldn't move.As stated by the OP if the officers were gesturing you to move, that would be enough of a defence in court as a Police officer directed you through... Not that this would ever reach a court room.
Your second sentence has been proven to be wrong - people have ended up in court and have been prosecuted
If the Police want us to move then they ought to get the laws clarified
2 days ago North Circular, wife following a transit turning right at the lights, half way across at about a 45' angle, the Transit does an emergency stop.......wife hits tow bar of transit with drivers side headlight and does £2k damage to her car.......out of her view due to transit, a police car had jumped the lights and cut across front of Transit.....her fault for being too close but it doesn't seem right in a way to me. 
Once upon a time I would have manoeuvred through the red light without hesitation. Nowadays, only if I know the road very well. I’ve read too many stories about people being prosecuted because of cameras (and about sirens being used inappropriately). Anyway, the Highway Code suggests not to “ Consider the route of such a vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass, while complying with all traffic signs”
V8RX7 said:
I would have agreed with you but I've seen that people have bee prosecuted and I'm not risking getting points so now I wouldn't move.
Your second sentence has been proven to be wrong - people have ended up in court and have been prosecuted
If the Police want us to move then they ought to get the laws clarified
No need to agree with me. Everyone reacts differently, I personally would go through as the small chance of getting 3 points and £100 is nothing if a life is saved. I'm pretty confident in the scenario posted above I would win a court proceeding if the officers were waving me through. Your second sentence has been proven to be wrong - people have ended up in court and have been prosecuted
If the Police want us to move then they ought to get the laws clarified
I'm personally not aware of any court cases where anyone has been prosecuted for going through a red light because of an emergency vehicle, do you have a link to any as I'm sure there have been the odd couple. All I can see if scaremongering stories from the likes of the Mirror/Sun.
As a blue light driver, yes we turn off sirens when unable to get through traffic however many still go through a red and pull to one side to let us though.
HantsRat said:
No need to agree with me. Everyone reacts differently, I personally would go through as the small chance of getting 3 points and £100 is nothing if a life is saved. I'm pretty confident in the scenario posted above I would win a court proceeding if the officers were waving me through.
I'm personally not aware of any court cases where anyone has been prosecuted for going through a red light because of an emergency vehicle, do you have a link to any as I'm sure there have been the odd couple. All I can see if scaremongering stories from the likes of the Mirror/Sun.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=56277I'm personally not aware of any court cases where anyone has been prosecuted for going through a red light because of an emergency vehicle, do you have a link to any as I'm sure there have been the odd couple. All I can see if scaremongering stories from the likes of the Mirror/Sun.
Fastdruid said:
Thanks, from a skim read, he can't remember the emergency vehicle type and also pled guilty?Like I said there will always be the odd persecution however the chances are so slim. I probably see about 10 vehicle cross to line to let me though each week.
catweasle said:
2 days ago North Circular, wife following a transit turning right at the lights, half way across at about a 45' angle, the Transit does an emergency stop.......wife hits tow bar of transit with drivers side headlight and does £2k damage to her car.......out of her view due to transit, a police car had jumped the lights and cut across front of Transit.....her fault for being too close but it doesn't seem right in a way to me.
Traveling too close sadly, no excuse for the missus.Having been a cop for 30 years i have experience from both sides...
We were always trained that with blues and twos on treat junctions and lights as give way...you have no straight thro.
I was always appreciative of any member of the public who moved over / made an effort to let us through. On occasions it simply wasnt possible to make progress at junctions it was just one of those things.
Worst was the "frightened rabbit / panic reaction" where someone does something totally unexpected OR being the 2nd light vehicle...someone moves over for the first and then moves back not realising there was alspsecond vehicle
We were always trained that with blues and twos on treat junctions and lights as give way...you have no straight thro.
I was always appreciative of any member of the public who moved over / made an effort to let us through. On occasions it simply wasnt possible to make progress at junctions it was just one of those things.
Worst was the "frightened rabbit / panic reaction" where someone does something totally unexpected OR being the 2nd light vehicle...someone moves over for the first and then moves back not realising there was alspsecond vehicle
HantsRat said:
Fastdruid said:
Thanks, from a skim read, he can't remember the emergency vehicle type and also pled guilty?Like I said there will always be the odd persecution however the chances are so slim. I probably see about 10 vehicle cross to line to let me though each week.
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