Landlord Council Tax Lies...
Discussion
Bit of an unpleasant situation, a long (and dull) post... advice appreciated...
A family member moved into a rental property in London six years ago, with the contract stating that the rent was inclusive of council tax. The Landlady was pleasant and nice at first (my family member was literally a perfect tenant; quiet, tidy, improved the place with permission, spent money on it and treated it as a home), but later, the Landlady became strange and unpleasant, which we later found out was how she had treated all the other tenants (separate apartments in one building) for their entire tenancy, but that's neither here nor there.
(Edited for clarity: The council tax was listed in the initial contract, which was done through a letting agent, as being inclusive. After one year, the Landlady stopped operating through the agent and made the council tax payable by the tenants. The council tax was then paid directly right up until my family member left, but only now (!?) are the council chasing it.)
Fast forward to last year, my family member gave notice and found a new place (partly due to the increasingly erratic Landlady) but at no point did anything other than behave like a good tenant. The point of departure was very unpleasant, with the Landlady sending lots of aggressive, nasty texts that made little or no sense. My family member simply stopped responding and quietly moved on... after the tenancy ended the Landlady made a huge fuss about my family member needing to contact the council to say she was living there for the tenancy - this was complied with and a letter to the council was sent.
Fast forward to this week. A letter has arrived from the council, more than six months delayed, saying that the council tax was never actually paid by the Landlady for a full year of the tenancy (six years ago!) and that now my family member owes them. They've said any arrangement between Landlady and tenant is nothing to do with them.
A quick Google looks like the council are right - assuming there's no time limit on their retrieval.
My question is, what's the best way to fight this to get the money back from the Landlady? All the contracts are very clear and copies of everything have been kept.
Any advice or experience of similar welcomed.
A family member moved into a rental property in London six years ago, with the contract stating that the rent was inclusive of council tax. The Landlady was pleasant and nice at first (my family member was literally a perfect tenant; quiet, tidy, improved the place with permission, spent money on it and treated it as a home), but later, the Landlady became strange and unpleasant, which we later found out was how she had treated all the other tenants (separate apartments in one building) for their entire tenancy, but that's neither here nor there.
(Edited for clarity: The council tax was listed in the initial contract, which was done through a letting agent, as being inclusive. After one year, the Landlady stopped operating through the agent and made the council tax payable by the tenants. The council tax was then paid directly right up until my family member left, but only now (!?) are the council chasing it.)
Fast forward to last year, my family member gave notice and found a new place (partly due to the increasingly erratic Landlady) but at no point did anything other than behave like a good tenant. The point of departure was very unpleasant, with the Landlady sending lots of aggressive, nasty texts that made little or no sense. My family member simply stopped responding and quietly moved on... after the tenancy ended the Landlady made a huge fuss about my family member needing to contact the council to say she was living there for the tenancy - this was complied with and a letter to the council was sent.
Fast forward to this week. A letter has arrived from the council, more than six months delayed, saying that the council tax was never actually paid by the Landlady for a full year of the tenancy (six years ago!) and that now my family member owes them. They've said any arrangement between Landlady and tenant is nothing to do with them.
A quick Google looks like the council are right - assuming there's no time limit on their retrieval.
My question is, what's the best way to fight this to get the money back from the Landlady? All the contracts are very clear and copies of everything have been kept.
Any advice or experience of similar welcomed.
Edited by Sterillium on Thursday 17th September 20:28
Edited by Sterillium on Thursday 17th September 22:04
Saleen836 said:
If I am reading your post correctly...
For the first year of your relative moving in the landlady didn't pay the council tax but paid every year after that?
If that is the situation it seems very odd
No, I've not been very clear, apologies - I will edit the post to clarify, but the council tax was inclusive in that first year (contracts signed through an agent) but reverted to tenants having to pay the year after. So, basically, in the year where the council tax was supposed to be part of the rent, the council tax didn't actually get paid, but they were paid every subsequent year directly by the tenant... and they've seemingly only realised this now!For the first year of your relative moving in the landlady didn't pay the council tax but paid every year after that?
If that is the situation it seems very odd
SydneyBridge said:
Have the Council seen the contract for the first year? Assume the tenant can show she paid the rent to LL, which according to the contract included the council tax
The council have seen it and said it doesn’t matter, my family member is liable and the tenancy details are a private arrangement. Edited by SydneyBridge on Thursday 17th September 22:14
Peter911 said:
So what is the problem? Paythe council tax due , and if anything is due back from the landlady the civil procedure rules apply
The problem is the sudden unexpected six-year-old bill for a years council tax, that was supposed to be part of the rent.Edited by Peter911 on Thursday 17th September 22:13
I’ve no idea what the civil procedure you’re referring to is, that’s why I’ve posted asking for advice, hopefully from people who have experienced similar.
Civil procedure is a small claims action
It should be a very easy claim if all paperwork is as claimed.
Pay the council, keep the receipt for the payment. Offer the landlady 2 weeks to reimburse siting the tenancy agreement for the period. If they do not pay, go to money claim online and open up a civil case to recover the amount via the small claims court. Don’t forget to add costs.
It should be a very easy claim if all paperwork is as claimed.
Pay the council, keep the receipt for the payment. Offer the landlady 2 weeks to reimburse siting the tenancy agreement for the period. If they do not pay, go to money claim online and open up a civil case to recover the amount via the small claims court. Don’t forget to add costs.
If this was a non-domestic rates case then I would argue that the Council were too late to issue a demand due to the Encon Insulation and Honda v North Somerset cases. Details of the latter can be found at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/1505.h... however there is a subtle difference in the wording of the council tax legislation. This is refered to in the Honda case where the decision states:-
"An allied issue was considered by Lightman J in the High Court on a Case Stated concerning council tax in Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] EWHC 246 (Admin); [2004] RA 113. The regulation in question provided that the notice 'is to be served' as soon as practicable after a particular date rather than 'shall be served' which the Judge considered to be stronger language. On that basis he was able to distinguish Encon and held that a failure to serve the notice as soon as practicable did not operate as a bar to recovery of the tax, unless the breach had occasioned some procedural or substantive prejudice: see paragraph [21]. He rejected a submission that the taxpayer had been prejudiced by the late service of the notice. No authority was referred to on this issue except Encon. In the course of his discussion of the regulation requiring prompt service of the notice, Lightman J observed:
"The statutory duty is imposed at least in substantial part for the protection of those from whom the billing authority may seek payment of council tax. The notice is required to enable the recipient to know that a claim may be made for payment and accordingly to take immediate steps to prepare and assemble any necessary evidence to establish that there is not a duty to pay … and to arrange his finances to make payment.""
I think you need to read Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] but I cant find it online. If I was not working from home I would read Ryde on Rating and Council Tax but I dont have access from home.
However if its clear that the agreement states the Landlord pays I would take a chance at the Magistrates court!
"An allied issue was considered by Lightman J in the High Court on a Case Stated concerning council tax in Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] EWHC 246 (Admin); [2004] RA 113. The regulation in question provided that the notice 'is to be served' as soon as practicable after a particular date rather than 'shall be served' which the Judge considered to be stronger language. On that basis he was able to distinguish Encon and held that a failure to serve the notice as soon as practicable did not operate as a bar to recovery of the tax, unless the breach had occasioned some procedural or substantive prejudice: see paragraph [21]. He rejected a submission that the taxpayer had been prejudiced by the late service of the notice. No authority was referred to on this issue except Encon. In the course of his discussion of the regulation requiring prompt service of the notice, Lightman J observed:
"The statutory duty is imposed at least in substantial part for the protection of those from whom the billing authority may seek payment of council tax. The notice is required to enable the recipient to know that a claim may be made for payment and accordingly to take immediate steps to prepare and assemble any necessary evidence to establish that there is not a duty to pay … and to arrange his finances to make payment.""
I think you need to read Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] but I cant find it online. If I was not working from home I would read Ryde on Rating and Council Tax but I dont have access from home.
However if its clear that the agreement states the Landlord pays I would take a chance at the Magistrates court!
kiethton said:
Civil procedure is a small claims action
It should be a very easy claim if all paperwork is as claimed.
Pay the council, keep the receipt for the payment. Offer the landlady 2 weeks to reimburse siting the tenancy agreement for the period. If they do not pay, go to money claim online and open up a civil case to recover the amount via the small claims court. Don’t forget to add costs.
Ah, excellent - this is very useful, thank you. I will advise that all documents are copied (assuming we would upload the “evidence” as part of the process). I’m just waiting to get the final amount so that the appropriate level claim can be made. It should be a very easy claim if all paperwork is as claimed.
Pay the council, keep the receipt for the payment. Offer the landlady 2 weeks to reimburse siting the tenancy agreement for the period. If they do not pay, go to money claim online and open up a civil case to recover the amount via the small claims court. Don’t forget to add costs.
Chrisgr31 said:
If this was a non-domestic rates case then I would argue that the Council were too late to issue a demand due to the Encon Insulation and Honda v North Somerset cases. Details of the latter can be found at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/1505.h... however there is a subtle difference in the wording of the council tax legislation. This is refered to in the Honda case where the decision states:-
"An allied issue was considered by Lightman J in the High Court on a Case Stated concerning council tax in Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] EWHC 246 (Admin); [2004] RA 113. The regulation in question provided that the notice 'is to be served' as soon as practicable after a particular date rather than 'shall be served' which the Judge considered to be stronger language. On that basis he was able to distinguish Encon and held that a failure to serve the notice as soon as practicable did not operate as a bar to recovery of the tax, unless the breach had occasioned some procedural or substantive prejudice: see paragraph [21]. He rejected a submission that the taxpayer had been prejudiced by the late service of the notice. No authority was referred to on this issue except Encon. In the course of his discussion of the regulation requiring prompt service of the notice, Lightman J observed:
"The statutory duty is imposed at least in substantial part for the protection of those from whom the billing authority may seek payment of council tax. The notice is required to enable the recipient to know that a claim may be made for payment and accordingly to take immediate steps to prepare and assemble any necessary evidence to establish that there is not a duty to pay … and to arrange his finances to make payment.""
I think you need to read Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] but I cant find it online. If I was not working from home I would read Ryde on Rating and Council Tax but I dont have access from home.
However if its clear that the agreement states the Landlord pays I would take a chance at the Magistrates court!
Thank you for this - I will scour through it and see what I can glean. "An allied issue was considered by Lightman J in the High Court on a Case Stated concerning council tax in Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] EWHC 246 (Admin); [2004] RA 113. The regulation in question provided that the notice 'is to be served' as soon as practicable after a particular date rather than 'shall be served' which the Judge considered to be stronger language. On that basis he was able to distinguish Encon and held that a failure to serve the notice as soon as practicable did not operate as a bar to recovery of the tax, unless the breach had occasioned some procedural or substantive prejudice: see paragraph [21]. He rejected a submission that the taxpayer had been prejudiced by the late service of the notice. No authority was referred to on this issue except Encon. In the course of his discussion of the regulation requiring prompt service of the notice, Lightman J observed:
"The statutory duty is imposed at least in substantial part for the protection of those from whom the billing authority may seek payment of council tax. The notice is required to enable the recipient to know that a claim may be made for payment and accordingly to take immediate steps to prepare and assemble any necessary evidence to establish that there is not a duty to pay … and to arrange his finances to make payment.""
I think you need to read Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] but I cant find it online. If I was not working from home I would read Ryde on Rating and Council Tax but I dont have access from home.
However if its clear that the agreement states the Landlord pays I would take a chance at the Magistrates court!
Sterillium said:
Saleen836 said:
If I am reading your post correctly...
For the first year of your relative moving in the landlady didn't pay the council tax but paid every year after that?
If that is the situation it seems very odd
No, I've not been very clear, apologies - I will edit the post to clarify, but the council tax was inclusive in that first year (contracts signed through an agent) but reverted to tenants having to pay the year after. So, basically, in the year where the council tax was supposed to be part of the rent, the council tax didn't actually get paid, but they were paid every subsequent year directly by the tenant... and they've seemingly only realised this now!For the first year of your relative moving in the landlady didn't pay the council tax but paid every year after that?
If that is the situation it seems very odd
Can you clarify the dates of those first 12 months as the Council may not be able to claim that far back. As others have said, you may have to pay and then claim from LL
I work in council tax collection.
First of all, you say the building had lots of other tenants in separate flats. Was the flat your family member in definitely self contained and she was in a tenancy agreement for her flat?
If it was a house of multiple occupation, lots of people renting rooms on individual contracts but sharing facilities such as the bathroom/kitchen/general living area, the landlord would be liable for council tax payment.
Assuming the flat was self contained, your family member is liable for payment. Any arrangement for the landlord to pay is a private arrangement between the tenant and the landlord and not something the council tax office will get involved in. Saying too much time has passed to collect isn't relevant because legally your family member had an obligation to declare to the council tax office that she'd moved into the property when she first took up tenancy. The council hasn't known she was there but failed to bill. It's not known she was there and is now billing as soon as it's found out she was. I understand she was naive and trusted the landlord, but that's not the council's fault.
The rule for situations where the landlord pays the council tax for the tenant is that the tenant is liable according to legislation and the tenant's name goes on the council tax account as the liable party. If the tenant wants the landlord to deal with the bills, the tenant has to give the council tax office authority to discuss her account with the landlord and, if she wants, to send the bills to the landlord. That ensures the council tax office is complying with GDPR.
This is something I explain and enforce straight away as soon as I get tenants or landlords telling me council tax is included in the rent and the landlord pays. it prevents the kind of situation your relative is in cropping up several years down the line.
You're saying it's just one year of payment outstanding from six years ago. Whose name has the council tax been in for the last five years? Has it been in the name of your family member or has your family member been paying to a council tax account in the name of the landlord?
If it's the latter, the first thing to worry about is the council tax office creating a new account in the name of your family member from 2014 to 2020 and refunding five years of your family member's payments to the landlord because they're on a council tax account in the landlord's name. Then billing your family member again for five years of payments she's made. Your family member needs to make it clear to the council tax office she's been paying for the last five years and show receipts or bank statements to prove it.
Your relative then needs to see if she can apply for backdated Council Tax Support under the circumstances and see if there's any additional help such as a discretionary council tax reduction.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/help-if...
Some local authorities are making the availability of these more prominent due to COVID-19 and the need to be seen to be supporting people.
If she was the sole occupier, she also needs to apply for a 25% single person discount.
First of all, you say the building had lots of other tenants in separate flats. Was the flat your family member in definitely self contained and she was in a tenancy agreement for her flat?
If it was a house of multiple occupation, lots of people renting rooms on individual contracts but sharing facilities such as the bathroom/kitchen/general living area, the landlord would be liable for council tax payment.
Assuming the flat was self contained, your family member is liable for payment. Any arrangement for the landlord to pay is a private arrangement between the tenant and the landlord and not something the council tax office will get involved in. Saying too much time has passed to collect isn't relevant because legally your family member had an obligation to declare to the council tax office that she'd moved into the property when she first took up tenancy. The council hasn't known she was there but failed to bill. It's not known she was there and is now billing as soon as it's found out she was. I understand she was naive and trusted the landlord, but that's not the council's fault.
The rule for situations where the landlord pays the council tax for the tenant is that the tenant is liable according to legislation and the tenant's name goes on the council tax account as the liable party. If the tenant wants the landlord to deal with the bills, the tenant has to give the council tax office authority to discuss her account with the landlord and, if she wants, to send the bills to the landlord. That ensures the council tax office is complying with GDPR.
This is something I explain and enforce straight away as soon as I get tenants or landlords telling me council tax is included in the rent and the landlord pays. it prevents the kind of situation your relative is in cropping up several years down the line.
You're saying it's just one year of payment outstanding from six years ago. Whose name has the council tax been in for the last five years? Has it been in the name of your family member or has your family member been paying to a council tax account in the name of the landlord?
If it's the latter, the first thing to worry about is the council tax office creating a new account in the name of your family member from 2014 to 2020 and refunding five years of your family member's payments to the landlord because they're on a council tax account in the landlord's name. Then billing your family member again for five years of payments she's made. Your family member needs to make it clear to the council tax office she's been paying for the last five years and show receipts or bank statements to prove it.
Your relative then needs to see if she can apply for backdated Council Tax Support under the circumstances and see if there's any additional help such as a discretionary council tax reduction.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/help-if...
Some local authorities are making the availability of these more prominent due to COVID-19 and the need to be seen to be supporting people.
If she was the sole occupier, she also needs to apply for a 25% single person discount.
One rule I've always lived by is to make sure you pay your council tax first before anything else, and I think I'll now add to that that to never trust a 3rd party to pay it for me.
I feel sorry for your family member. They got screwed
If you still have a copy of the AST, and it details that a portion of the rent will be used to pay council tax, you might consider it a worthwhile case to take to small claims court.
I feel sorry for your family member. They got screwed
If you still have a copy of the AST, and it details that a portion of the rent will be used to pay council tax, you might consider it a worthwhile case to take to small claims court.
Chrisgr31 said:
...
I think you need to read Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] but I cant find it online. If I was not working from home I would read Ryde on Rating and Council Tax but I dont have access from home.
However if its clear that the agreement states the Landlord pays I would take a chance at the Magistrates court!
(1) Regentford does not assist the OP on the facts that he has indicated. In Regentford, the perennially lazy but also very clever Mr Justice Lightman decided that a billing authority’s breach of the statutory duty to serve a demand notice as soon as practicable did not operate in all cases as a windfall to the person liable, but precluded a claim to payment and a duty to pay only when the breach had occasioned some procedural or substantive prejudice.I think you need to read Regentford Limited v Thanet District Council [2004] but I cant find it online. If I was not working from home I would read Ryde on Rating and Council Tax but I dont have access from home.
However if its clear that the agreement states the Landlord pays I would take a chance at the Magistrates court!
In summary: even if the Council did not give notice to pay until recently, that does not preclude it from claiming the tax. I am not sure without checking, but ISTR that the Council has six years from giving the notice in which to enforce payment. Protection of public revenues in that instance may override usual limitation principles.
(2) Your no doubt well meant advice as to taking a chance is wrong, and the OP would be unwise to follow that advice. In summary, as between the local authority and the occupier of a property, the liability for Council Tax lies on the occupier. The fact that the occupier may have agreed with a third party that the third party should pay the tax is of no relevance to the Council's ability to recover the tax from the occupier. As others have stated, the OP's rellie must pay the tax to the Council, and she can then, if she wishes to, sue the landlord for the amount of the tax, as damages for breach of contract.
By the way, OP, the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) are the set of legal rules that govern all civil litigation, not just small claims. Some posters here are, it appears, hyper-litigious and sue Amazon every day for delivering an item worth a fiver twenty seconds late, and they therefore assume that everyone knows what the CPR are, but there's no reason why you should.
You can however read the CPR online if you want to. A small claim made via the MCOL service can be done fairly simply. First, your rellie should write a polite letter to the landlord calling for the money and giving a reasonable time to pay. There s guidance about this type of letter available online. If no result, and if your rellie wants to, she can then make a claim, setting out the facts in a plain and fair way. If as you say the agreement was clear then the landlord should either settle the claim or the court will uphold the claim.
Keep it all calm, focused, and relevant, and do not engage with any loony stuff from the landlord. No need to go on about lying etc - just assert that there was a deal, that the deal has not been honoured, and that this has cost the rellie money.
NB NB NB : if the landlord's contractual liability to pay arose more than six years ago, the claim on the contract will be out of time UNLESS the OP's rellie could not with reasonable diligence have discovered the fact of non-payment of tax by the landlord until some later time (as may indeed be the case). In that event, the six year limitation period runs from the date when the rellie could with reasonable diligence have discovered non-payment.
Usual AL NYL yadda yadda yadda.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 18th September 10:06
Sterillium said:
SydneyBridge said:
Have the Council seen the contract for the first year? Assume the tenant can show she paid the rent to LL, which according to the contract included the council tax
The council have seen it and said it doesn’t matter, my family member is liable and the tenancy details are a private arrangement. Edited by SydneyBridge on Thursday 17th September 22:14
Psycho Warren said:
Rivenink said:
One rule I've always lived by is to make sure you pay your council tax first before anything else,
I would probably suggest paying your rent or mortgage first. Council tax is definitely second to having a roof over your head.The bank or your landlord can begin proceedings to evict of course, which is a bad enough state of affairs, but if you can't pay, there is no way for them to make you pay them before anyone else.
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