Ditch clearance & soakaway issues...
Discussion
Question to those in the know or with recent experience...
Our property borders fields, on the East side is a ditch which ours and our neighbours soakaway drains in to.
The ditch is owned by the farmer and takes run off from the lane and the fields, then feeds into a bigger ditch half a mile further North.
This ditch has not been cleared for 6 years and is now a good 18"-24" deep in silt with a thick layer of cuttings from his hedge cutters on top of that.
The silt level has risen above the soakaway outlet, I have been in and dug a few feet out - but ditch digging is not my thing! (Had to go in there again this afternoon to try and cut a channel so the soakaway can drain)
The lane is also flooding more often, and more quickly - so I'm convinced the reduced capacity of the ditch is a factor there too...
I have spoken to the landowner, his office and his son, (Email, phone calls and face to face) they don't outright say "No" to clearing it - but it's very clear that it's right at the bottom of their list of priorities. (I have raised it several times over the last couple of months)
I've offered to get my own contractor in to clear the ditch, or contribute to the cost of their own workers and equipment in doing it - still nothing and no permission being given to allow a contractor on site yet either.
I'd rather not go legal on this as they are far better resourced and in a far better postion than I.
So what options do I have? Is there likely to be an issue if I just get a contractor in anyway without their permission?
Our property borders fields, on the East side is a ditch which ours and our neighbours soakaway drains in to.
The ditch is owned by the farmer and takes run off from the lane and the fields, then feeds into a bigger ditch half a mile further North.
This ditch has not been cleared for 6 years and is now a good 18"-24" deep in silt with a thick layer of cuttings from his hedge cutters on top of that.
The silt level has risen above the soakaway outlet, I have been in and dug a few feet out - but ditch digging is not my thing! (Had to go in there again this afternoon to try and cut a channel so the soakaway can drain)
The lane is also flooding more often, and more quickly - so I'm convinced the reduced capacity of the ditch is a factor there too...
I have spoken to the landowner, his office and his son, (Email, phone calls and face to face) they don't outright say "No" to clearing it - but it's very clear that it's right at the bottom of their list of priorities. (I have raised it several times over the last couple of months)
I've offered to get my own contractor in to clear the ditch, or contribute to the cost of their own workers and equipment in doing it - still nothing and no permission being given to allow a contractor on site yet either.
I'd rather not go legal on this as they are far better resourced and in a far better postion than I.
So what options do I have? Is there likely to be an issue if I just get a contractor in anyway without their permission?
I'd be intrigued to know if there is a covenant or some other requirement on his title that requires him to keep the ditch clear. I doubt there is, given that the farm may well pre-date any of the surrounding houses but it's worth the few quid it will cost you to look (on the Land Registry website). I'd be surprised if there isn't some requirement somewhere that relates to this; it would strike me as being odd that a drainage system like yours would be put in place with no onus on anyone to ensure that the drains/ditches are kept clear. Having said that in a previous house we owned there was a covenant that a turning area further down the lane was kept clear of cars to allow fire engines to turn round. The only problem was that the turning area was owned by someone else and so this was virtually unenforceable. Worth having a dig around the Land Registry website to see if that's of any help.
I had a response back this evening, basically "if it's urgent do it yourself at your own cost. If not, we'll look into it when we get around to hedge cutting".
Poor sods only have c8 farms and actually tried to play the costs vs reward card. "What's actually in it for us? Not really likely the floods will be bad again" etc.
Doing it myself is the only viable option so that I don't get flooded in a) water b) my own waste.
First contractor is coming tomorrow to give me a quote/timescale...
Poor sods only have c8 farms and actually tried to play the costs vs reward card. "What's actually in it for us? Not really likely the floods will be bad again" etc.
Doing it myself is the only viable option so that I don't get flooded in a) water b) my own waste.
First contractor is coming tomorrow to give me a quote/timescale...
BrettMRC said:
I had a response back this evening, basically "if it's urgent do it yourself at your own cost. If not, we'll look into it when we get around to hedge cutting".
Poor sods only have c8 farms and actually tried to play the costs vs reward card. "What's actually in it for us? Not really likely the floods will be bad again" etc.
Doing it myself is the only viable option so that I don't get flooded in a) water b) my own waste.
First contractor is coming tomorrow to give me a quote/timescale...
Send them a copy of the quote.Poor sods only have c8 farms and actually tried to play the costs vs reward card. "What's actually in it for us? Not really likely the floods will be bad again" etc.
Doing it myself is the only viable option so that I don't get flooded in a) water b) my own waste.
First contractor is coming tomorrow to give me a quote/timescale...
Is it worth talking to the environment agency?
I have similar but our boundary lines down the middle of the ditch. The series of ditches run into a larger ditch which is actually classed as a river by EA. As such they check it and clear it every year & require an 8m strip along one side for their machinery (which has been very welcome with a nearby planning application).
Given the road floods and resultant drainage issue that may be an angle and EA can enforce.
I have similar but our boundary lines down the middle of the ditch. The series of ditches run into a larger ditch which is actually classed as a river by EA. As such they check it and clear it every year & require an 8m strip along one side for their machinery (which has been very welcome with a nearby planning application).
Given the road floods and resultant drainage issue that may be an angle and EA can enforce.
The EA and floding authority routes have been tried several times, sadly in this region they are massively overstretched and under funded. As a result they are focusing on areas with denser populations and bigger impacts.
Can't blame them, but in the background hamlets like ours are left totally at the mercy of large commercial farming, and whatever work they deem fit to do.
Can't blame them, but in the background hamlets like ours are left totally at the mercy of large commercial farming, and whatever work they deem fit to do.
wolf1 said:
Try to look at it from the other side as well. Your soakaway runs into his ditch. There may actually be a covenant/agreement that requires the home owners to maintain the ditch at their expense and not the farmers. Food for thought.
Hence why I asked several times, over several months what the intentions were, offered to pay costs or get in my own contractor....Living in the Fens (Outwell, West Norfolk in my case) introduced me to Internal Drainage Boards. I had 8 acres of land in a long thin strip, surrounded by 10 ft deep ditches. My land was 2 feet above sea level, hence the ditches were 8 ft below. I had 3/4 of a mile of ditches next to my fields.
But everything was manged by the IDB, I paid £30 a year in IDB rates, and regular as clockwork at the appropriate time of year (after the broccoli and pumpkins had been picked on the farm next door's fields) a 20 tonne digger came around on the farmer's fields with KIngs Lynn IDB on the side, and cleared out the ditches so that everything worked properly and the fens were drained into the Great Ouse.
In the absolute worst wet winter weather we occasionally had a little standing water in one field, but we never flooded.
So, OP, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't some sort of covenant in place regarding waste water ditch clearance. I would expect it to have been in place when planning permission was granted for your house.
But everything was manged by the IDB, I paid £30 a year in IDB rates, and regular as clockwork at the appropriate time of year (after the broccoli and pumpkins had been picked on the farm next door's fields) a 20 tonne digger came around on the farmer's fields with KIngs Lynn IDB on the side, and cleared out the ditches so that everything worked properly and the fens were drained into the Great Ouse.
In the absolute worst wet winter weather we occasionally had a little standing water in one field, but we never flooded.
So, OP, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't some sort of covenant in place regarding waste water ditch clearance. I would expect it to have been in place when planning permission was granted for your house.
I've been looking at the IDB for the area, and it seems as if we are just outside of their border, but one of the channels is in their remit - so will drop them a line and see if they have a suggestion.
The property probably predates a lot of planning legislation and covenants etc - this was originally Church owned land, then Duchy - but will have a dig just so I can actually talk with some confidence!
The property probably predates a lot of planning legislation and covenants etc - this was originally Church owned land, then Duchy - but will have a dig just so I can actually talk with some confidence!
BrettMRC said:
I've been looking at the IDB for the area, and it seems as if we are just outside of their border, but one of the channels is in their remit - so will drop them a line and see if they have a suggestion.
The property probably predates a lot of planning legislation and covenants etc - this was originally Church owned land, then Duchy - but will have a dig just so I can actually talk with some confidence!
If it was Duchy land, I have it on good authority that the water has to pass the Duchy 'pon the left hand side. The property probably predates a lot of planning legislation and covenants etc - this was originally Church owned land, then Duchy - but will have a dig just so I can actually talk with some confidence!
Could that be the source of your problem?
Your problem is that you don't have a soak-away drainage system, you have a private outfall into somebody elses ditch. If they have no obligation to keep your private outfall clear and they are not sufficiently concerned to keep their drainage ditch clear there isn't a great deal you can do about it.
Have you explored the possibility of a true surface-water soak-away on your own land, either a herringbone slotted-pipe drainage system or a gravel-filled soak-away pit. A simple percolation test would show if the ground is suitable for a soak-away and then you never have to rely upon the farmers ditch again.
Have you explored the possibility of a true surface-water soak-away on your own land, either a herringbone slotted-pipe drainage system or a gravel-filled soak-away pit. A simple percolation test would show if the ground is suitable for a soak-away and then you never have to rely upon the farmers ditch again.
We have a tank, it's the outlet from this that is now below the silt level of the ditch. (I'd assumed that outlet was called a soakaway, but you live and learn! 
)
Our land is not extensive enough to allow a herringbone or other setup.
It's just aggravating me at the moment... same core issue - new landowner being as unhelpful as possible whilst also pushing his own agenda hard.
I'm just factoring it as another cost of living here now, but the attitude and changes are making me go full PH in my thinking....(ie time to sell up and go somewhere else)
)Our land is not extensive enough to allow a herringbone or other setup.
It's just aggravating me at the moment... same core issue - new landowner being as unhelpful as possible whilst also pushing his own agenda hard.
I'm just factoring it as another cost of living here now, but the attitude and changes are making me go full PH in my thinking....(ie time to sell up and go somewhere else)
BrettMRC said:
We have a tank, it's the outlet from this that is now below the silt level of the ditch. (I'd assumed that outlet was called a soakaway, but you live and learn! )
….
Apologies, I'm confused. )….
I had assumed you were talking about a simple surface-water drainage run-off, not the outlet from a private foul water sewage treatment unit / septic tank. If you are talking about the run-off from a septic tank / treatment unit then you shouldn't be allowing that to simply discharge into a ditch anyway, they should always discharge into an underground filter system.
If you are talking of a modern surface water system with a buried attenuation tank, then there should be an agreement outlying the consents in place for you to discharge the run-off into a ditch, and that would include maintenance responsibilities as an payment terms.
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