fine received in Rome in 2016

[george123]

I received a letter from Waters & Gate debt collectors back in Nov 2018 asking for payment of a violation committed in Rome in May 2016 for entering a restricted zone in a hire car - had no idea I had committed this offence. Long story short, I took a punt and sent W&G the '3 letter process' I found on the internet and it worked...they wrote back stating they were no longer dealing with my case.

Fast forward to last week, I received a letter from Lovetts Solictors stating they have now instructed by the City of Rome to collect the fine. I have to pay €362.32 within 7 days or legal action will be taken. Since this is now with a solicitor rather than some dodgy debt collector, what are my options? I guess pay up? Letter attached. thanks all.

Edited by george123 on Tuesday 3rd November 21:23

[rb26]

george123 said:

I received a letter from Waters & Gate debt collectors back in Nov 2018 asking for payment of a violation committed in Rome in May 2016 for entering a restricted zone in a hire car - had no idea I had committed this offence. Long story short, I took a punt and sent W&G the '3 letter process' I found on the internet and it worked...they wrote back stating they were no longer dealing with my case.

Fast forward to last week, I received a letter from Lovetts Solictors stating they have now instructed by the City of Rome to collect the fine. I have to pay €362.32 within 7 days or legal action will be taken. Since this is now with a solicitor rather than some dodgy debt collector, what are my options? I guess pay up? Letter attached. thanks all.

I'm not learned in law, but I would imagine there is a time lapse clause in these sorts of fines. I belive they have 365 days to inform foreign motorists of speeding tickets for them to be recoverable.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a punt by the city of Rome to scare people into paying up. However, it might be worth asking citizens advice or a qualified solicitor to get complete clarity on this.

[TheDrownedApe]

Quick Google found this. Not sure how accurate it is but has some links in to where you might find the answer.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/advice/italy-sp...

[martinbiz]

That is total B****ks and not enforcable in the UK, it wouldnt be the first time Debt collecting co's have sent out scaremonger forged letters purporting to be from solictors. I would phone Lovetts and check if it has really come from them, if it has, then I would think they could be in trouble threatening legal action when they know it's not possible, if they have been instucted to try and reover the debt, they can only send a letter asking you to pay, pretty much the same as the debt collector.

Maybe BV can add some input

Edit to add: by 'legal action' I should have explained that the only recourse would be through civil action, which is vanishingly unlikely

Edited by martinbiz on Monday 2nd November 18:58

[lawtoni]

file in bin

had one for a traffic violation near Pisa.
Ignore, they have no jurisdiction, they pay pennies in the pound to buy up fines from Italy.

Had one from same company, they give up eventually

[george123]

lawtoni said:

file in bin

had one for a traffic violation near Pisa.
Ignore, they have no jurisdiction, they pay pennies in the pound to buy up fines from Italy.

Had one from same company, they give up eventually

thanks. from Waters & Gate or Lovetts?

[Pericoloso]

I was under the impression foreign fines had to be served within 12 months of offence .

I abused a ZTL last year in May , not had any letters .

[george123]

martinbiz said:

That is total B****ks and not enforcable in the UK, it wouldnt be the first time Debt collecting co's have sent out scaremonger forged letters purporting to be from solictors. I would phone Lovetts and check if it has really come from them, if it has, then I would think they could be in trouble threatening legal action when they know it's not possible, if they have been instucted to try and reover the debt, they can only send a letter asking you to pay, pretty much the same as the debt collector.

Maybe BV can add some input

Edit to add: by 'legal action' I should have explained that the only recourse would be through civil action, which is vanishingly unlikely

Edited by martinbiz on Monday 2nd November 18:58

Looking at their website, Lovetts are another debt collector who charge £1.50 a letter and so no different to Water & Gate who have contacted me before? So I'd assume after W&G wrote to me in Nov 2018 stating they were no longer dealing with my case, they have sold on the debt to Lovetts? thks

[anonymous-user]

martinbiz said:

That is total B****ks and not enforcable in the UK, it wouldnt be the first time Debt collecting co's have sent out scaremonger forged letters purporting to be from solictors. I would phone Lovetts and check if it has really come from them, if it has, then I would think they could be in trouble threatening legal action when they know it's not possible, if they have been instucted to try and reover the debt, they can only send a letter asking you to pay, pretty much the same as the debt collector.

Maybe BV can add some input

Edit to add: by 'legal action' I should have explained that the only recourse would be through civil action, which is vanishingly unlikely

Edited by martinbiz on Monday 2nd November 18:58

1. Your assertion that the fine is not enforceable in the UK is put forward with great confidence, so I assume that you must have a clear basis on which to make it. Expertise of this kind is always welcome, so can you please share with us the basis for your assertion. I am not saying that you are wrong, and you might be right. I don't know.

2. With effect from 6 May 2017, the relevant authority in an EU member state could obtain registered keeper information from the UK Government about a road safety offence committed on or after 6 May 2017, if the EU member state requested the information within 12 months of the offence. This is because of UK legislation implementing an EU Directive. It is not relevant in the OP's case.

3. The question in the OP's case is whether the fine had effect under the law of Italy so as to create a civil liability, I am not qualified in the law of Italy. I doubt that anyone who posts here is.

4. If it did create a civil liability, then that liability could in principle be pursued in a civil court in the UK.

5. On PH, it is assumed that the laws of all foreign countries have been made by Mickey Mouse. It is the patriotic duty of all Brits abroad to ignore the so called laws of Johnny Foreigner (whilst calling for the death penalty for any foreigner who parks on a double yellow line in noble Britannia, to be followed by the invasion and devastation of the foreigner's country and the enslavement of its populace). This is all right and good, but I have a vague notion that, sometimes, laws made overseas are enforced in the UK by those treacherous enemies of the people called Judges. Whether this could happen in the OP's case I am not sure.

6. The OP could ignore the letter from the solicitors. I do not think that would be wise. The OP could instead write back and invite the solicitors to state with precision the basis on which they assert that the fine is enforceable in the the UK. I would make any such letter a short one, a polite one, and write it in plain English, but there may be websites where you can find a template for a long, rude, ranty letter written in a convoluted legalistic language that no sensible lawyer would ever use. Take yer pick!

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 3rd November 19:40

[anonymous-user]

Pericoloso said:

I was under the impression foreign fines had to be served within 12 months of offence .

I abused a ZTL last year in May , not had any letters .

You may be getting mixed up with the system for cross border information exchange on road safety offences. That system requires a request for info from state A to state B within 12 months of the alleged offence.

[Byker28i]

I had a parking violation in Rome in a hire car in 2015, they seem quite hot on it, despite unclear road markings. I paid mine as it was 60 euros if I paid asap rising to 100 euros if ignored, which seemed a fair amount so coughed up.

Your's seems quite high, a result of ignoring?

[lawtoni]

george123 said:

thanks. from Waters & Gate or Lovetts?

yes the very same

[Ussrcossack]

Anything from Rome needs to be in English.

As the debt collectors for the traffic order that is in place for where the incident happened.

I'm sure they will soon go back under their rock only to send more letters under another guise

[anonymous-user]

Ussrcossack said:

Anything from Rome needs to be in English.

As the debt collectors for the traffic order that is in place for where the incident happened.

I'm sure they will soon go back under their rock only to send more letters under another guise

The letter isn't from Rome. It's from a firm of lawyers in England. Also, what is the point of your suggested strategy if you anticipate that it will not cause the problem to go away? I doubt that you are an avowed follower of Fabius Cunctator, but perhaps I do you wrong.

[Ussrcossack]

I understand what you are saying breadvan.

However in the UK and I'm sure elsewhere there needs to be a trafic regularly order, if not the fine is invalid.

So why not ask for it. As others have stated companies like lovel purchase debts for pennies, this might not be the case as they quite they are acting for Rome, so what is the likely good of this going to court of mcol

[anonymous-user]

Ussrcossack said:

I understand what you are saying breadvan.

However in the UK and I'm sure elsewhere there needs to be a trafic regularly order, if not the fine is invalid.

So why not ask for it. As others have stated companies like lovel purchase debts for pennies, this might not be the case as they quite they are acting for Rome, so what is the likely good of this going to court of mcol

Sadly, I do not understand what you are saying. You go on about writing in English, and then you type the post above!

What is a "trafic regularly order"? Which edition of the Bumper Book of Pub Law are you citing?

[anonymous-user]

A few thoughts -

1. It is not wise to assume that Rome sets its traffic rules in the same way as that London does. Incredible as it may appear to the plucky John Bull, there are ways of doing things that are not the British way.

2. The original fine might or might not have been valid. That is a matter of Italian law.

3. Italian law might or might not impose a deadline for collecting the fine.

4. The fine might or might not be enforceable in England.

5. Ignoring the letter and any follow up to it may create a risk that a judgment is obtained against the OP, whether or not such judgment is soundly based.

6. Better therefore to ask the solicitors to explain precisely the basis on which they assert the claim.

7. If they are bluffing, then the bluff is called. If they are not bluffing, then you can decide what to do next, once you know what their case is. In other words, do not fight in the dark.

[Ussrcossack]

Point 6 and 7 is what I was trying to say.

I'm sorry I d not got I last 13 of my primary school law book volume 1

[eldar]

Ive found the following quite helpful. Find a section of EU regulation, and copy about 500 words. Using google translate, go from English to polish to german to your final choice of language.

Add two pictures of a Vauxhall Meriva. Post.

[anonymous-user]

Anyone who associates themselves in any way with a Vauxhall Meriva is subject to an immediate European Arrest Warrant and is sentenced to their choice of ten years had labour in a Romanian jail, or one week working as a short order cook in the nearest branch of Spoons. Most people choose the Romanian jail.