75 Years since the Nuremberg Trials
Discussion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-55008987
I had as a colleague a very distinguished old lawyer who had been a very junior member of the prosecution team at Nuremberg. He died about five years ago. Last month a friend's mother, a member of the Polish Resistance who gave evidence at the trials, died in her 90s, the rest of her close family having died early in the War. My wife's father, still alive, saw (and smelled) Belsen as an 18 year old British soldier in April 1945. It won't be long before connections like these will all be gone.
I had as a colleague a very distinguished old lawyer who had been a very junior member of the prosecution team at Nuremberg. He died about five years ago. Last month a friend's mother, a member of the Polish Resistance who gave evidence at the trials, died in her 90s, the rest of her close family having died early in the War. My wife's father, still alive, saw (and smelled) Belsen as an 18 year old British soldier in April 1945. It won't be long before connections like these will all be gone.
It's evident to me (as I've got older) that I definitely realise why we repeat the same mistakes of the past....the collective experiences (of WW1 or WW2 or Crimea or America etc etc have been lost as the participants and the generations surrounding those experiences, die.
Tremendously sad and quite damning tbh.
Tremendously sad and quite damning tbh.
WW2 was so shocking to its survivors that they built a network of international bodies to reduce violence and promote co-operation. War has not been banished since 1945, but it has been curtailed. Now as people forget what happened, enthusiasm for the sort of politics that led to WW2 returns.
In a decade or two, the last Holocaust survivor will die, and the deniers will go into overdrive.
In a decade or two, the last Holocaust survivor will die, and the deniers will go into overdrive.
I really don't think the Holocaust will ever be permitted to be denied or forgotten. The state of Israel is evidence of that.
I had an Italian friend who was a great admirer of Mussolini. Would I say my friend was a fascist? No. Would I say my friend was a racist? Definitely not.
Enrico was the manager of the Spaghetti House that was held up in the 1970s - Link and a very interesting man to talk to. He absolutely hated the Germans (Nazis) and always said that when they hung Il Duce from the lampost (upside down) no money fell from his pockets. He was fiercely patriotic, would only buy Fiats and was Inter Milan through and through.
It is very easy to say all fascists are racist and Nazis, the vast majority might well have been/are but not all. It's like the neanderthals that say that Muslims are all radical bombers, when clearly there aren't.
I had an Italian friend who was a great admirer of Mussolini. Would I say my friend was a fascist? No. Would I say my friend was a racist? Definitely not.
Enrico was the manager of the Spaghetti House that was held up in the 1970s - Link and a very interesting man to talk to. He absolutely hated the Germans (Nazis) and always said that when they hung Il Duce from the lampost (upside down) no money fell from his pockets. He was fiercely patriotic, would only buy Fiats and was Inter Milan through and through.
It is very easy to say all fascists are racist and Nazis, the vast majority might well have been/are but not all. It's like the neanderthals that say that Muslims are all radical bombers, when clearly there aren't.
Holocaust denial is rife. Iran has it as state policy.
Fascism and Nazism were two different but related things (Falangism was different again), but Mussolini was a violent despot and not in any way to be admired. Mussolini was, unlike Hitler, a genuine intellectual, but he was also a very nasty piece of work. Mussolini was as racist as a racist bloke being racist on international racism day when it came to Africans. He was not huge on anti-semitism, but did not object when Nazi paratroopers rescued him from prison and Hitler set him up in a little anti-semitic mini state at Salo.
Fascism and Nazism were two different but related things (Falangism was different again), but Mussolini was a violent despot and not in any way to be admired. Mussolini was, unlike Hitler, a genuine intellectual, but he was also a very nasty piece of work. Mussolini was as racist as a racist bloke being racist on international racism day when it came to Africans. He was not huge on anti-semitism, but did not object when Nazi paratroopers rescued him from prison and Hitler set him up in a little anti-semitic mini state at Salo.
Here is kindly Mussolini the non racist in 1920 -
"When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians...."
"When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians...."
It worries me that holocaust denial could increasingly seep back into mainstream consciousness or be twisted for political gain.
True story, I was reading Primo Levi's The Periodic Table on a train about 20 years ago. Sat opposite me was an old lady, who kept looking at me and smiling, a little unnervingly. I'm quite shy and not one to engage strangers, so I smiled back and buried my nose in my book. As we neared Kings Cross where it terminated (from Leeds ) she lifted her sleeve to reveal a number, patted me on the shoulder and walked off...
One thing I also remember, was that it was an early train, about 9.30am arrival, and she had a bloody great glass of red wine
Excellent thread BV.
I know some people try to say we should forget these events, it's in the past etc. IMO that's even more reason to remember and remind ourselves of what evil lurks inside mankind (cf The Killing Fields). There should be more remembrance and monuments to man's inhumanity not less
I know some people try to say we should forget these events, it's in the past etc. IMO that's even more reason to remember and remind ourselves of what evil lurks inside mankind (cf The Killing Fields). There should be more remembrance and monuments to man's inhumanity not less
In North London in the 80s and 90s you might encounter very grumpy old ladies wearing fur coats and speaking with Viennese accents. They would be rude in shops. "Vair ist mine Apfel strudel??!!!" They were allowed to be grumpy. Most of the people they knew when they lived in Vienna had been murdered.
A dear friend escaped from Vienna and lived a good life. RIP Klaus -
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/aug/0...
A dear friend escaped from Vienna and lived a good life. RIP Klaus -
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/aug/0...
Breadvan72 said:
Here is kindly Mussolini the non racist in 1920 -
"When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians...."
Sadly, a not unusual point of view throughout europe back in the day (some might say even today, even more sadly)"When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians...."
Breadvan72 said:
Here is kindly Mussolini the non racist in 1920 -
"When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians...."
Please understand that I am not for one moment defending Mussolini. My friend Enrico, Is one of the few people I would willing have died for. "When dealing with such a race as Slavic - inferior and barbarian - we must not pursue the carrot, but the stick policy.... We should not be afraid of new victims.... The Italian border should run across the Brenner Pass, Monte Nevoso and the Dinaric Alps.... I would say we can easily sacrifice 500,000 barbaric Slavs for 50,000 Italians...."
I would say that apart from the obvious racist wording above, it was the 1920s where casual racism was rife the world over. Women were still seen as things you 'owned'. It is very dangerous and not necessarily helpful to compare the language of decades ago with today's standards. There is no direct comparison. The quote above is more to do with Mussolini wanting to expand his empire than racism. Although it is clearly racist. The inference being that as mighty Italians, we should not be held back by these goat herders, and that the mighty (and obviously morally, fiscally and intellectually) superior world should 'educate' the less fortunate than ourselves.
You only have to look at our own TV in the relatively recent past to see how casual racism was a 'thing'. The 'comedy' of sitcom Love Thy Neighbour and Jim Davidson in the 70s. Even Dad's Army with Jones going on about 'Fuzzy Wuzzys' not liking it up 'em. It was tremendously popular, but today is hideous and embarrasing.
Temporal relativism is BS. In the era of chattel slavery, many knew it was wrong and spoke against it. The world did not suddenly wake up one day and change its mind. Giving our ancestors a free pass because "that was how things were back then" is a bad idea. Anyway, in 1920 racism and eugenics already stood condemned. Mussolini chose to go down those paths.
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