Can an employer visit your house without permission/notice?
Discussion
Posting on behalf of a fellow PHer as his/her username is noticeable. Let's call the PHer Android.
So Android, like most of us, has been working from home in their profession. Android has had a couple of minor medical issues, nothing to be too concerned about, but as part of living alone in lockdown and their health issues, they were slightly distanced from work whilst they sorted themselves out.
Android went to hospital overnight for a checkup which came back clear. When they were discharged from hospital in the morning, with a clean bill of health, they contacted their employer who told them to take the day off work to rest and recuperate.
Unbeknownst to Android, the company had asked a local employee to make an excuse to pop round and visit Android to ensure they were safe. Android, being a PHer, has multiple vehicles (one of which they insist on saying is remapped, as a reference to PHers who may know Android), and one of their vehicles was not parked outside. This vehicle was either in the shop or had been left somewhere awaiting retrieval, nothing untoward or illegal.
Android was in a deep sleep after the medication they were given after their hospital visit wore off. Android was also particuarly keen to get to sleep due to the medical procedure that may or may not have involved a finger going where they didn't want it to go.
From what Android has said, their employer was informed by the visiting employee that their house "looked abandoned" and given one of their cars wasn't parked outside, could assume that Android wasn't at home and was taking the piss with their recovery day.
Android has now been referred to management for these reasons, and they are asking for friendly PH advice so they can keep things civil. As I understand, Android wants an apology from their company to ensure that they are not being snooped on any further, and the topic of company-funded CCTV was also raised.
The phrase "reality is perception" came up a number of times within the company conversation, but Android is adamant that this doesn't excuse a company sending non-management staff to someone's personal property with no cause nor warning.
I have no idea what to suggest but I did say I'd be happy to post this on Android's behalf, just so they can get some advice before they talk to their employer.
Any advice appreciated, Android has asked me to thank you all in advance and say something about custard tests not being appropriate for this.
Cheers,
Second Best
So Android, like most of us, has been working from home in their profession. Android has had a couple of minor medical issues, nothing to be too concerned about, but as part of living alone in lockdown and their health issues, they were slightly distanced from work whilst they sorted themselves out.
Android went to hospital overnight for a checkup which came back clear. When they were discharged from hospital in the morning, with a clean bill of health, they contacted their employer who told them to take the day off work to rest and recuperate.
Unbeknownst to Android, the company had asked a local employee to make an excuse to pop round and visit Android to ensure they were safe. Android, being a PHer, has multiple vehicles (one of which they insist on saying is remapped, as a reference to PHers who may know Android), and one of their vehicles was not parked outside. This vehicle was either in the shop or had been left somewhere awaiting retrieval, nothing untoward or illegal.
Android was in a deep sleep after the medication they were given after their hospital visit wore off. Android was also particuarly keen to get to sleep due to the medical procedure that may or may not have involved a finger going where they didn't want it to go.
From what Android has said, their employer was informed by the visiting employee that their house "looked abandoned" and given one of their cars wasn't parked outside, could assume that Android wasn't at home and was taking the piss with their recovery day.
Android has now been referred to management for these reasons, and they are asking for friendly PH advice so they can keep things civil. As I understand, Android wants an apology from their company to ensure that they are not being snooped on any further, and the topic of company-funded CCTV was also raised.
The phrase "reality is perception" came up a number of times within the company conversation, but Android is adamant that this doesn't excuse a company sending non-management staff to someone's personal property with no cause nor warning.
I have no idea what to suggest but I did say I'd be happy to post this on Android's behalf, just so they can get some advice before they talk to their employer.
Any advice appreciated, Android has asked me to thank you all in advance and say something about custard tests not being appropriate for this.
Cheers,
Second Best
This is going to be one of those polarising topics because it entirely depends on the nuances of relationships and histories between the parties.
Depending on that, the correct outcome might be to burn the employer to the ground, or it might be to go along to the management referral, say “I was asleep on my sofa, and I’m not happy that this this sequence of events has happened that leads me to be standing here” and them saying “yeah you’re right, we effed up, sorry. The two people involved will be spoken with” and that being the end of it.
ETA: it’s also going to be polarised by risk tolerance and situation. I’ve always been fortunate in that I’ve been willing and able to walk away from an employer if I felt they behaved inappropriately (as this would be, if as stated), many many people are not so lucky. They may be trapped in the job for a variety of reasons and that will change their perspective on this situation.
For me, I wouldn’t work for a company that didn’t trust me. But again, I’m fortunate, and it may be in androids situation that the company do trust him but rando middle manager is being a psycho.
Depending on that, the correct outcome might be to burn the employer to the ground, or it might be to go along to the management referral, say “I was asleep on my sofa, and I’m not happy that this this sequence of events has happened that leads me to be standing here” and them saying “yeah you’re right, we effed up, sorry. The two people involved will be spoken with” and that being the end of it.
ETA: it’s also going to be polarised by risk tolerance and situation. I’ve always been fortunate in that I’ve been willing and able to walk away from an employer if I felt they behaved inappropriately (as this would be, if as stated), many many people are not so lucky. They may be trapped in the job for a variety of reasons and that will change their perspective on this situation.
For me, I wouldn’t work for a company that didn’t trust me. But again, I’m fortunate, and it may be in androids situation that the company do trust him but rando middle manager is being a psycho.
Edited by BurtonLazars on Thursday 10th December 04:56
Anybody can visit anybody else's home without notice. The person at home does not have to let the visitor in.
In some circumstances a visit by an employer could be regarded as harassing or bullying behaviour, but all depends on the circumstances. An employer that suspects that an employee is malingering could reasonably check on this, but a doorstep confrontation might not be a good idea. Context is everything.
In some circumstances a visit by an employer could be regarded as harassing or bullying behaviour, but all depends on the circumstances. An employer that suspects that an employee is malingering could reasonably check on this, but a doorstep confrontation might not be a good idea. Context is everything.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 10th December 06:50
I'm unsure of whether there is something here... as my partner once went round giving all her employee's cakes and a friendly chat (most of them suffered with mental illness)
However if an employer was looking into someone's work, most have been looking for frequency of typing on the computer.
Most have allowed for changes to occur, some of the staff have been shopping, ferrying kids and out jogging. Then catching up late evenings or weekends (apparently) but is a hiderence my end.
However if an employer was looking into someone's work, most have been looking for frequency of typing on the computer.
Most have allowed for changes to occur, some of the staff have been shopping, ferrying kids and out jogging. Then catching up late evenings or weekends (apparently) but is a hiderence my end.
BurtonLazars said:
This is going to be one of those polarising topics because it entirely depends on the nuances of relationships and histories between the parties.
....not to mention the suspicions of contributors (like moi)If the employer is so quick to assume "android" is taking the P then I wonder exactly what "sending someone round to see that they're safe" actually means and what motivates the employer to invest man hours this way.
Evidence of the prescription of the drug and its effects should be not too hard to prove?
It sounds like there is history there. Would it be a fair assessment to say that these “minor medical issues” have caused sudden, spontaneous and/or prolonged absences from work in the past?
Clearly there is a breakdown in trust between the employer and the person, since the visit appears to have been for the purposes of confirming a previously held belief.
The actual specifics of this I think are broadly irrelevant. If an employer says to someone to take the rest of the day off to recuperate, I don’t think that means you’re obliged to stay indoors, in bed, etc. There have been instances where I’ve gone to the doctors and subsequently had the rest of the day off after being told to, and have gone out for medicine or even supplies, so on the face of it it would’ve looked like I was “out”. Being unfit for work doesn’t necessarily mean you’re incapacitated.
Ultimately it sounds like however this is resolved there is a failure in the relationship between the two parties that may have no “fix” short of this person finding another job. It’s impossible to know with only one side of the story what the employer has had to put up with, so to speak.
Clearly there is a breakdown in trust between the employer and the person, since the visit appears to have been for the purposes of confirming a previously held belief.
The actual specifics of this I think are broadly irrelevant. If an employer says to someone to take the rest of the day off to recuperate, I don’t think that means you’re obliged to stay indoors, in bed, etc. There have been instances where I’ve gone to the doctors and subsequently had the rest of the day off after being told to, and have gone out for medicine or even supplies, so on the face of it it would’ve looked like I was “out”. Being unfit for work doesn’t necessarily mean you’re incapacitated.
Ultimately it sounds like however this is resolved there is a failure in the relationship between the two parties that may have no “fix” short of this person finding another job. It’s impossible to know with only one side of the story what the employer has had to put up with, so to speak.
You know sometimes you read a wall of text and at the end of it think "I'd just tell them I was asleep and recovering and thanks for showing concern".
Unless there's a whole back story here and the employer wasn't really sending someone to check they were "safe".
But then I'm not a lawyer.
Unless there's a whole back story here and the employer wasn't really sending someone to check they were "safe".
But then I'm not a lawyer.
It's not uncommon for Android's team to be friends. They regularly met up for drinks and eats pre-Covid and some of them were regular guests at each others' houses.
From what Android says one of their colleagues, who was a reasonably close friend (i.e. knew Android's home address), was instructed to visit to see if Android was home. It was originally mentioned as a duty of care issue, but Android's colleagues accidentally divulged that it was a bit of a front to see if Android was actually home or not, with the intention to see if they were taking the piss at work.
Android has full hospital records along with a record of what was prescribed to them. I think what winds them up is that none of this was asked for, but assumptions and decisions were made without any input from Android. After all, if you had a bad day at work and decided you needed some space, would you really want someone from work banging on your door?
I did play Devil's advocate to Android and say "well, if you decided to top yourself, do you not think that someone banging on your door would distract you enough to answer it, stop doing something stupid and go from there?" I don't think Android was 100% convinced, and legally I'm sure a Karen could shout about human rights and then suddenly it's even more of a minefield. Note Android is not a Karen.
Appreciate I've done absolutely nothing to answer some of the questions here.
From what Android says one of their colleagues, who was a reasonably close friend (i.e. knew Android's home address), was instructed to visit to see if Android was home. It was originally mentioned as a duty of care issue, but Android's colleagues accidentally divulged that it was a bit of a front to see if Android was actually home or not, with the intention to see if they were taking the piss at work.
Android has full hospital records along with a record of what was prescribed to them. I think what winds them up is that none of this was asked for, but assumptions and decisions were made without any input from Android. After all, if you had a bad day at work and decided you needed some space, would you really want someone from work banging on your door?
I did play Devil's advocate to Android and say "well, if you decided to top yourself, do you not think that someone banging on your door would distract you enough to answer it, stop doing something stupid and go from there?" I don't think Android was 100% convinced, and legally I'm sure a Karen could shout about human rights and then suddenly it's even more of a minefield. Note Android is not a Karen.
Appreciate I've done absolutely nothing to answer some of the questions here.
If you want a completely isolated answer then I don’t think there’s anything wrong per-say with an employer sending an employee around to someone’s house to “check if they’re ok”, and taking whatever inference they want from that.
“Android” only has the word of his colleagues that there was an ulterior motive and I suspect if it actually turned into some kind of formal grievance that this colleague wouldn’t put their own neck on the line vs the employer (assuming there was even an avenue to file a grievance - harassment?)
As said - this relationship of suspicion and doubt didn’t start at this point, there must surely be history here that isn’t mentioned at all in the first post, but is relevant to contextualise the employer’s negative opinion and decision making.
“Android” only has the word of his colleagues that there was an ulterior motive and I suspect if it actually turned into some kind of formal grievance that this colleague wouldn’t put their own neck on the line vs the employer (assuming there was even an avenue to file a grievance - harassment?)
As said - this relationship of suspicion and doubt didn’t start at this point, there must surely be history here that isn’t mentioned at all in the first post, but is relevant to contextualise the employer’s negative opinion and decision making.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: "I'd just tell them I was asleep and recovering and thanks for showing concern".
This. OP, from what you say there has been no comment from management yet. Sounds like you have a "Paranoid Android" on your hands 
I've been off work for ages, lockdown, shielding, signed off for weeks, hospital etc etc I know they have been keeping tabs on what I am up to but 90% of the time my boss has actually been genuinely concerned.
Why doesn't 'android' go to this meeting with management and let them put forward what their concerns are and see if they are actually concerned about 'androids' health, or wether they are concerned that 'android' is taking the piss.
Let management set out their stall in the meeting, and if going the 'taking the piss' route, give them enough rope to hang themselves, and only then produce appointment proof, credible reasons for a car being missing and why the door was not answered.
Acknowledge appreciation for sending a fellow employee round to check up for for welfare reasons, and apologise for being unable to answer the door as 'asteroid' was in bed and not expecting or desiring visitors.
Whilst remaining calm and therefore in control of the meeting, very politely ask them where they are going with this and ask why they are causing futher undue stress above and beyond the stress that you are already under with worrying about your health.
Let them explain in full without interupting; let them trip themselves up, and if dissatisfied with their response, ensure you get that point across and want it noted.
'Asteroid' must conduct themselves in a controlled manner throughout this meeting with no raised voices or body language construed as 'aggressive.
Ensure a full copy of exactly what was discussed is recieved, and that another goes in the personal file.
This is based on supplied information; all bets are off if 'asteroid' has a track record of taking the piss.
Let management set out their stall in the meeting, and if going the 'taking the piss' route, give them enough rope to hang themselves, and only then produce appointment proof, credible reasons for a car being missing and why the door was not answered.
Acknowledge appreciation for sending a fellow employee round to check up for for welfare reasons, and apologise for being unable to answer the door as 'asteroid' was in bed and not expecting or desiring visitors.
Whilst remaining calm and therefore in control of the meeting, very politely ask them where they are going with this and ask why they are causing futher undue stress above and beyond the stress that you are already under with worrying about your health.
Let them explain in full without interupting; let them trip themselves up, and if dissatisfied with their response, ensure you get that point across and want it noted.
'Asteroid' must conduct themselves in a controlled manner throughout this meeting with no raised voices or body language construed as 'aggressive.
Ensure a full copy of exactly what was discussed is recieved, and that another goes in the personal file.
This is based on supplied information; all bets are off if 'asteroid' has a track record of taking the piss.
You DO NOT need to be at home in bed on a sick day.
If Android had been advised to take the day off, this means you do not need to do any work today.
If Android wanted to go for a walk, to the cinema, to the pub, to the gym or anywhere else in order to feel better, that's up to Android.
If however Android was taking the wee wee, then that's up to them and their employer.
If Android had been advised to take the day off, this means you do not need to do any work today.
If Android wanted to go for a walk, to the cinema, to the pub, to the gym or anywhere else in order to feel better, that's up to Android.
If however Android was taking the wee wee, then that's up to them and their employer.
650spider said:
Why doesn't 'android' go to this meeting with management and let them put forward what their concerns are and see if they are actually concerned about 'androids' health, or wether they are concerned that 'android' is taking the piss.
Let management set out their stall in the meeting, and if going the 'taking the piss' route, give them enough rope to hang themselves, and only then produce appointment proof, credible reasons for a car being missing and why the door was not answered.
Acknowledge appreciation for sending a fellow employee round to check up for for welfare reasons, and apologise for being unable to answer the door as 'asteroid' was in bed and not expecting or desiring visitors.
Whilst remaining calm and therefore in control of the meeting, very politely ask them where they are going with this and ask why they are causing futher undue stress above and beyond the stress that you are already under with worrying about your health.
Let them explain in full without interupting; let them trip themselves up, and if dissatisfied with their response, ensure you get that point across and want it noted.
'Asteroid' must conduct themselves in a controlled manner throughout this meeting with no raised voices or body language construed as 'aggressive.
Ensure a full copy of exactly what was discussed is recieved, and that another goes in the personal file.
This is based on supplied information; all bets are off if 'asteroid' has a track record of taking the piss.
But this is probably better?Let management set out their stall in the meeting, and if going the 'taking the piss' route, give them enough rope to hang themselves, and only then produce appointment proof, credible reasons for a car being missing and why the door was not answered.
Acknowledge appreciation for sending a fellow employee round to check up for for welfare reasons, and apologise for being unable to answer the door as 'asteroid' was in bed and not expecting or desiring visitors.
Whilst remaining calm and therefore in control of the meeting, very politely ask them where they are going with this and ask why they are causing futher undue stress above and beyond the stress that you are already under with worrying about your health.
Let them explain in full without interupting; let them trip themselves up, and if dissatisfied with their response, ensure you get that point across and want it noted.
'Asteroid' must conduct themselves in a controlled manner throughout this meeting with no raised voices or body language construed as 'aggressive.
Ensure a full copy of exactly what was discussed is recieved, and that another goes in the personal file.
This is based on supplied information; all bets are off if 'asteroid' has a track record of taking the piss.
mickyh7 said:
650spider said:
Why doesn't 'android' go to this meeting with management and let them put forward what their concerns are and see if they are actually concerned about 'androids' health, or wether they are concerned that 'android' is taking the piss.
Let management set out their stall in the meeting, and if going the 'taking the piss' route, give them enough rope to hang themselves, and only then produce appointment proof, credible reasons for a car being missing and why the door was not answered.
Acknowledge appreciation for sending a fellow employee round to check up for for welfare reasons, and apologise for being unable to answer the door as 'asteroid' was in bed and not expecting or desiring visitors.
Whilst remaining calm and therefore in control of the meeting, very politely ask them where they are going with this and ask why they are causing futher undue stress above and beyond the stress that you are already under with worrying about your health.
Let them explain in full without interupting; let them trip themselves up, and if dissatisfied with their response, ensure you get that point across and want it noted.
'Asteroid' must conduct themselves in a controlled manner throughout this meeting with no raised voices or body language construed as 'aggressive.
Ensure a full copy of exactly what was discussed is recieved, and that another goes in the personal file.
This is based on supplied information; all bets are off if 'asteroid' has a track record of taking the piss.
But this is probably better?Let management set out their stall in the meeting, and if going the 'taking the piss' route, give them enough rope to hang themselves, and only then produce appointment proof, credible reasons for a car being missing and why the door was not answered.
Acknowledge appreciation for sending a fellow employee round to check up for for welfare reasons, and apologise for being unable to answer the door as 'asteroid' was in bed and not expecting or desiring visitors.
Whilst remaining calm and therefore in control of the meeting, very politely ask them where they are going with this and ask why they are causing futher undue stress above and beyond the stress that you are already under with worrying about your health.
Let them explain in full without interupting; let them trip themselves up, and if dissatisfied with their response, ensure you get that point across and want it noted.
'Asteroid' must conduct themselves in a controlled manner throughout this meeting with no raised voices or body language construed as 'aggressive.
Ensure a full copy of exactly what was discussed is recieved, and that another goes in the personal file.
This is based on supplied information; all bets are off if 'asteroid' has a track record of taking the piss.
years back we had a lad who rang in sick /sent a doctors note in for two weeks
came back with a tan (in winter) and a broken arm, as he had been to some ski slopes in foreign lands,
another two weeks off ...
I was asked to drop his payslip and other stuff off as I was passing on my way home,
only to find him on the new extension roof, laying rooftiles.
kept it to myself, but he "left" after a couple of months.
came back with a tan (in winter) and a broken arm, as he had been to some ski slopes in foreign lands,
another two weeks off ...
I was asked to drop his payslip and other stuff off as I was passing on my way home,
only to find him on the new extension roof, laying rooftiles.
kept it to myself, but he "left" after a couple of months.
bobtail4x4 said:
years back we had a lad who rang in sick /sent a doctors note in for two weeks
came back with a tan (in winter) and a broken arm, as he had been to some ski slopes in foreign lands,
another two weeks off ...
I was asked to drop his payslip and other stuff off as I was passing on my way home,
only to find him on the new extension roof, laying rooftiles.
kept it to myself, but he "left" after a couple of months.
If his medical note was that he couldn't work for mental health reasons (say stress) why shouldn't he take a holiday and get a nice tan?came back with a tan (in winter) and a broken arm, as he had been to some ski slopes in foreign lands,
another two weeks off ...
I was asked to drop his payslip and other stuff off as I was passing on my way home,
only to find him on the new extension roof, laying rooftiles.
kept it to myself, but he "left" after a couple of months.
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