Legal advice - tenancy termination...
Discussion
I'd appreciate some advice please. Apologies if this is a long post - please bear with.
On Tuesday 16th our landlady (who rents to us via an Agency) informed us that she wants to move back to her property at the end of April, thus requesting that we leave. I took this as an instruction that the landlady was terminating the tenancy effectively giving us at least 2 months notice as per tenancy agreement (we were called on Wednesday 17th by Agency to confirm this and offer of support to find alternatives).
We didn't particularly want to leave, but we fully understand the reasons she needs to move back.
Now, we have been very fortunate that we have found alternative accommodation that suits us perfectly within 4 days i.e. all confirmed yesterday 19th Feb.
We informed landlady and agency yesterday by phone/whatsapp and confirmed by email this morning.
We have gone for a leave date of 19th March. That is 3 days after the next payment date for the rent - we pay a month up front.
So by my reckoning we have already paid 16th Feb - 15th March, so technically we would owe for 16th - 19th March. Which I'm fine with but I asked for flexibility because we have been asked to leave that these 4 days are free of charge - but not bothered if not. Don't ask don't get.
Anyway - the response we have had from the landlady via agency:
"We have spoken to landlady and have discussed your notice period and your request below. Unfortunately landlady would have liked to have official notice in line with the rent payments dates, thus allowing her to ensure everything is prepared for your vacation and her return to the property, as per the tenancy agreement....
The notice would be accepted on the basis that you would need to pay a full month’s rent on March 16th taking you to the 15th April"
The agreement does state we have to give notice at least 1 month's notice and the notice must expire the day before a Rent Due Date.
My issue is that notice was served on us by the landlady (though not in writing) - is it correct that we get penalised for finding alternative accommodation quicker than we are allowed to if we had served notice? Why are we out of pocket because she asked us to leave?
Does not seem right to me.
TIA
On Tuesday 16th our landlady (who rents to us via an Agency) informed us that she wants to move back to her property at the end of April, thus requesting that we leave. I took this as an instruction that the landlady was terminating the tenancy effectively giving us at least 2 months notice as per tenancy agreement (we were called on Wednesday 17th by Agency to confirm this and offer of support to find alternatives).
We didn't particularly want to leave, but we fully understand the reasons she needs to move back.
Now, we have been very fortunate that we have found alternative accommodation that suits us perfectly within 4 days i.e. all confirmed yesterday 19th Feb.
We informed landlady and agency yesterday by phone/whatsapp and confirmed by email this morning.
We have gone for a leave date of 19th March. That is 3 days after the next payment date for the rent - we pay a month up front.
So by my reckoning we have already paid 16th Feb - 15th March, so technically we would owe for 16th - 19th March. Which I'm fine with but I asked for flexibility because we have been asked to leave that these 4 days are free of charge - but not bothered if not. Don't ask don't get.
Anyway - the response we have had from the landlady via agency:
"We have spoken to landlady and have discussed your notice period and your request below. Unfortunately landlady would have liked to have official notice in line with the rent payments dates, thus allowing her to ensure everything is prepared for your vacation and her return to the property, as per the tenancy agreement....
The notice would be accepted on the basis that you would need to pay a full month’s rent on March 16th taking you to the 15th April"
The agreement does state we have to give notice at least 1 month's notice and the notice must expire the day before a Rent Due Date.
My issue is that notice was served on us by the landlady (though not in writing) - is it correct that we get penalised for finding alternative accommodation quicker than we are allowed to if we had served notice? Why are we out of pocket because she asked us to leave?
Does not seem right to me.
TIA
Edited by FunkyGibbon on Saturday 20th February 16:37
No legal experience at all, but regardless of the contract, I would be reminding them that your finding accommodation quickly makes for a painless transition... consider sucking it up as it was the landlords request that initiated the process, do they really expect you to forgo the chance of replacement digs, just so their contract dates line up? The mind boggles.
Sounds like an amateur landlord and an idiot agent. How was the notice given? If it was not served properly, it isn't legally binding and not effective; therefore, you don't have to vacate the property. Besides, due to COVID, unless you're in 6 months' arrears or there's antisocial behaviour, you need to be served 6 months'notice, not 2. That pretty much automatically means that the notice was defective. Tell them that as a result of the above, whatever notice you've been served is invalid and you're not moving. See how they like it. If you actually want to move and they're happy to come to a mutual understanding, then fine, but otherwise, they can go jump off a cliff.
There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
Thanks. We have not been given any formal termination notice. Just her verbal instructions that she wants to be back in the premises end of April.
We are now wanting to move as we have found a bette place in reality. We will be moving no matter what. But it was her verbal instructions that prompted this. Not us.
I think it is the agency trying it on so they get the thick end of another month's rent.
We are now wanting to move as we have found a bette place in reality. We will be moving no matter what. But it was her verbal instructions that prompted this. Not us.
I think it is the agency trying it on so they get the thick end of another month's rent.
Edited by FunkyGibbon on Saturday 20th February 18:49
Well, bunch of morally bankrupt sewer rats! In fact, I must apologise to sewer rats for that... What the agent and the landlady have done is totally illegal. For a start, for all intents and purposes, they haven't served you notice to leave; therefore, you're within your rights to stay where you are. You can even change the locks if you wish.
At this point, I would call their bluff. Tell them that what they have done is not legally compliant: you haven't been served notice which does not comply with the most up to date legislation; if and when you are served notice, that notice cannot be less than 6 months unless you're in arrears by 6 months or there's evidence of antisocial behaviour by you; under the circumstances, you are not moving until you have been served proper notice. If they wish to reconsider their position, they have 24/48 hours.
Out of interest, how much is your deposit in relation to your rent?
At this point, I would call their bluff. Tell them that what they have done is not legally compliant: you haven't been served notice which does not comply with the most up to date legislation; if and when you are served notice, that notice cannot be less than 6 months unless you're in arrears by 6 months or there's evidence of antisocial behaviour by you; under the circumstances, you are not moving until you have been served proper notice. If they wish to reconsider their position, they have 24/48 hours.
Out of interest, how much is your deposit in relation to your rent?
Tell them:
1. They can accept your notice and your tenancy ends on the date you have offered; or,
2. You will wait until they formally issue you with the correct notice, a section 21, then you will let the possession process take its natural course and they will be lucky to be moving back in before Christmas.
Let them choose.
1. They can accept your notice and your tenancy ends on the date you have offered; or,
2. You will wait until they formally issue you with the correct notice, a section 21, then you will let the possession process take its natural course and they will be lucky to be moving back in before Christmas.
Let them choose.
QuickQuack said:
Sounds like an amateur landlord and an idiot agent. How was the notice given? If it was not served properly, it isn't legally binding and not effective; therefore, you don't have to vacate the property. Besides, due to COVID, unless you're in 6 months' arrears or there's antisocial behaviour, you need to be served 6 months'notice, not 2. That pretty much automatically means that the notice was defective. Tell them that as a result of the above, whatever notice you've been served is invalid and you're not moving. See how they like it. If you actually want to move and they're happy to come to a mutual understanding, then fine, but otherwise, they can go jump off a cliff.
There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
Where on earth did you get all that from, I won't go any further, but you clearly have not got a clue about private tenancy agreements, just to start your assertion that they automatically must have a 6 months notice period is well........just plain B*****s. It looks like the OP's tenancy agreement has an agreed 2 month either way notice period which is quite normal, mine does!There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
OP, I am a Landlord and I have had a similar situation as you describe. If I was your Landlord I would be delighted in your proposal. If your Landlady needs to re-possess your property as she is needs to move in as it’s become her main residence for whatever reason, then I think she may be legally entitled to serve Notice, assuming your initial Tenancy Period has expired and it has now become a “rolling” Tenancy. On the face of it she doesn’t realise what a great Tenant you are and have found somewhere else to live and are prepared to move out without fuss. I would try again to get her and the Agent to see sense. The other thing you could do is stay another month as requested and hope your new Landlord will keep your new place for you. Good luck.
martinbiz said:
QuickQuack said:
Sounds like an amateur landlord and an idiot agent. How was the notice given? If it was not served properly, it isn't legally binding and not effective; therefore, you don't have to vacate the property. Besides, due to COVID, unless you're in 6 months' arrears or there's antisocial behaviour, you need to be served 6 months'notice, not 2. That pretty much automatically means that the notice was defective. Tell them that as a result of the above, whatever notice you've been served is invalid and you're not moving. See how they like it. If you actually want to move and they're happy to come to a mutual understanding, then fine, but otherwise, they can go jump off a cliff.
There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
Where on earth did you get all that from, I won't go any further, but you clearly have not got a clue about private tenancy agreements, just to start your assertion that they automatically must have a 6 months notice period is well........just plain B*****s. It looks like the OP's tenancy agreement has an agreed 2 month either way notice period which is quite normal, mine does!There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
https://www.gov.uk/private-renting-tenancy-agreeme...
Op - your landlord currently needs to formally provide six months notice.
I’d ask she either does that and you’ll vacate mid August, or advise you are prepared to move elsewhere on the 19th March subject to termination and nothing more owing beyond that date.
Suggest you need a response by 5pm on Monday or you will end conversations around alternative accommodation and await her formal notice and will look later for accommodation from August onwards.
Does the agent know you’ve got the new place?
If not, you could do a version of that suggested above but less aggressively as that is more likely to get the early exit you want.
You also don’t want them to be a cockerel with the deposit.
ETA- I had not refreshed this thread. Plenty of middle ground suggestions above. Negotiate before going nuclear ... asking the landlord to see sense often works.
If not, you could do a version of that suggested above but less aggressively as that is more likely to get the early exit you want.
You also don’t want them to be a cockerel with the deposit.
ETA- I had not refreshed this thread. Plenty of middle ground suggestions above. Negotiate before going nuclear ... asking the landlord to see sense often works.
Edited by Austin_Metro on Saturday 20th February 21:05
bennno said:
Op - your landlord currently needs to formally provide six months notice.
I’d ask she either does that and you’ll vacate mid August, or advise you are prepared to move elsewhere on the 19th March subject to termination and nothing more owing beyond that date.
Suggest you need a response by 5pm on Monday or you will end conversations around alternative accommodation and await her formal notice and will look later for accommodation from August onwards.
Whilst I totally agree with the above post, that is that the OP requests in writing an agreement to an early end to the OP's tenancy agreement for the 19 March. I am nevertheless not sure I would offer legal advice to the landlord/agent, that is the correct legal notice period of six (6) months. I’d ask she either does that and you’ll vacate mid August, or advise you are prepared to move elsewhere on the 19th March subject to termination and nothing more owing beyond that date.
Suggest you need a response by 5pm on Monday or you will end conversations around alternative accommodation and await her formal notice and will look later for accommodation from August onwards.
In the OP's position, if the landlord/agent wanted to be awkward, then serving an incorrect notice period of two (2) months, could extend the OP's tenancy to well past Christmas.
Wings said:
bennno said:
Op - your landlord currently needs to formally provide six months notice.
I’d ask she either does that and you’ll vacate mid August, or advise you are prepared to move elsewhere on the 19th March subject to termination and nothing more owing beyond that date.
Suggest you need a response by 5pm on Monday or you will end conversations around alternative accommodation and await her formal notice and will look later for accommodation from August onwards.
Whilst I totally agree with the above post, that is that the OP requests in writing an agreement to an early end to the OP's tenancy agreement for the 19 March. I am nevertheless not sure I would offer legal advice to the landlord/agent, that is the correct legal notice period of six (6) months. I’d ask she either does that and you’ll vacate mid August, or advise you are prepared to move elsewhere on the 19th March subject to termination and nothing more owing beyond that date.
Suggest you need a response by 5pm on Monday or you will end conversations around alternative accommodation and await her formal notice and will look later for accommodation from August onwards.
In the OP's position, if the landlord/agent wanted to be awkward, then serving an incorrect notice period of two (2) months, could extend the OP's tenancy to well past Christmas.
If objective to stay in ..... then absolutely I’d not raise it.
To echo some of the more useful advice provided so far.
ETA: My assumption is that you have an AST.
The Landlord must serve a Section 21 notice in writing to repossess a property where there are no extraneous issues (rent arrears, anti-social behaviour etc) Actually no reason needs to be provided by the Landlord under a Section 21. (Often referred to as a No Fault Eviction). This is a formal and legal document as opposed to a text/WhatsApp/email message.
Under current legislation, the minimum notice a Landlord is able to apply is 6 months. ETA: It is irrelevant if your AST states that the Landlord only has to give 2 months’ notice. This was the statutory minimum but has since been superseded by legislation brought about as a result of Covid extending that notice period to 6 months.
Her informal communication to you providing 2 months notice to you is illegal and not binding. You can legitimately refuse to comply.
The Agent is dire and should know how this is supposed to work and be advising the Landlord accordingly.
If the Landlord would like you to leave sooner than in 6 months time, as in this case, then they need to engage with you informally and work in a constructive manner to facilitate this with your full consent and cooperation, which you are not obliged to give. I guess this is why the Landlord has not gone down the Section 21 route initially.
So, that hope for cooperation works both ways. They ought to take a reasonable view and if indeed you are able to leave a little earlier than the 2 months, but want to waive your rent obligation for the period that you will actually leave to the date the 2 months actually falls due, then it is reasonable of you to expect the Landlord to play ball.
If they want to play silly burgers and make you pay another month’s rent, then politely but firmly point out that until such time you receive a formal Section 21 you are not obliged to do anything and that also brings with it a minimum 6 months before you have to leave in any event. All you are looking for is a little flexibility from them in return for the flexibility you have provided yourself. Not at all unreasonable.
Regarding your deposit, I assume this is held in a formal deposit scheme. The Landlord has to justify withholding any deposit monies from you and you can appeal any deductions to the deposit fund managers, who are independent. They will consider both sides of any argument and arbitrate accordingly. Whatever actions you take based on the above, does not affect your right to your deposit being returned unless the Landlord can legitimately make a case to withhold monies.
Nothing in the above potential courses of action would be a legitimate reason.
ETA: My assumption is that you have an AST.
The Landlord must serve a Section 21 notice in writing to repossess a property where there are no extraneous issues (rent arrears, anti-social behaviour etc) Actually no reason needs to be provided by the Landlord under a Section 21. (Often referred to as a No Fault Eviction). This is a formal and legal document as opposed to a text/WhatsApp/email message.
Under current legislation, the minimum notice a Landlord is able to apply is 6 months. ETA: It is irrelevant if your AST states that the Landlord only has to give 2 months’ notice. This was the statutory minimum but has since been superseded by legislation brought about as a result of Covid extending that notice period to 6 months.
Her informal communication to you providing 2 months notice to you is illegal and not binding. You can legitimately refuse to comply.
The Agent is dire and should know how this is supposed to work and be advising the Landlord accordingly.
If the Landlord would like you to leave sooner than in 6 months time, as in this case, then they need to engage with you informally and work in a constructive manner to facilitate this with your full consent and cooperation, which you are not obliged to give. I guess this is why the Landlord has not gone down the Section 21 route initially.
So, that hope for cooperation works both ways. They ought to take a reasonable view and if indeed you are able to leave a little earlier than the 2 months, but want to waive your rent obligation for the period that you will actually leave to the date the 2 months actually falls due, then it is reasonable of you to expect the Landlord to play ball.
If they want to play silly burgers and make you pay another month’s rent, then politely but firmly point out that until such time you receive a formal Section 21 you are not obliged to do anything and that also brings with it a minimum 6 months before you have to leave in any event. All you are looking for is a little flexibility from them in return for the flexibility you have provided yourself. Not at all unreasonable.
Regarding your deposit, I assume this is held in a formal deposit scheme. The Landlord has to justify withholding any deposit monies from you and you can appeal any deductions to the deposit fund managers, who are independent. They will consider both sides of any argument and arbitrate accordingly. Whatever actions you take based on the above, does not affect your right to your deposit being returned unless the Landlord can legitimately make a case to withhold monies.
Nothing in the above potential courses of action would be a legitimate reason.
Edited by Superleg48 on Saturday 20th February 22:13
martinbiz said:
Where on earth did you get all that from, I won't go any further, but you clearly have not got a clue about private tenancy agreements, just to start your assertion that they automatically must have a 6 months notice period is well........just plain B*****s. It looks like the OP's tenancy agreement has an agreed 2 month either way notice period which is quite normal, mine does!
I hope you are not a Landlord. If you are, I suggest you bring yourself up to speed with current legislation. Your comments are “plain B*****s”, I’m afraid. martinbiz said:
QuickQuack said:
Sounds like an amateur landlord and an idiot agent. How was the notice given? If it was not served properly, it isn't legally binding and not effective; therefore, you don't have to vacate the property. Besides, due to COVID, unless you're in 6 months' arrears or there's antisocial behaviour, you need to be served 6 months'notice, not 2. That pretty much automatically means that the notice was defective. Tell them that as a result of the above, whatever notice you've been served is invalid and you're not moving. See how they like it. If you actually want to move and they're happy to come to a mutual understanding, then fine, but otherwise, they can go jump off a cliff.
There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
Where on earth did you get all that from, I won't go any further, but you clearly have not got a clue about private tenancy agreements, just to start your assertion that they automatically must have a 6 months notice period is well........just plain B*****s. It looks like the OP's tenancy agreement has an agreed 2 month either way notice period which is quite normal, mine does!There are plenty on here and more on the Homes & DIY forum who can help with advice with regards to wording of emails and letters. Can you put up a copy of the termination notice you were sent with any personal details blanked out?
https://www.gov.uk/private-renting-tenancy-agreeme...
Whatever is written in your tenancy agreement regarding the notice periods to be given to the tenant by the landlord is now null and void; it has been replaced by an act of parliament as set out in the link above. No wording inserted by any lawyer, agent or landlord can override that legislation and reduce the notice period.
I wish people wouldn't resort to direct insults and swearing so quickly that if either side are demonstrated to be in error, it wouldn't create an antagonistic atmosphere.
Superleg48 said:
To echo some of the more useful advice provided so far.
The Landlord must serve a Section 21 notice in writing to repossess a property where there are no extraneous issues (rent arrears, anti-social behaviour etc) Actually no reason needs to be provided by the Landlord under a Section 21. (Often referred to as a No Fault Eviction). This is a formal and legal document as opposed to a text/WhatsApp/email message.
Under current legislation, the minimum notice a Landlord is able to apply is 6 months.
Her informal communication to you providing 2 months notice to you is illegal and not binding. You can legitimately refuse to comply.
The Agent is dire and should know how this is supposed to work and be advising the Landlord accordingly.
If the Landlord would like you to leave sooner than in 6 months time, as in this case, then they need to engage with you informally and work in a constructive manner to facilitate this with your full consent and cooperation, which you are not obliged to give. I guess this is why the Landlord has not gone down the Section 21 route initially.
So, that hope for cooperation works both ways. They ought to take a reasonable view and if indeed you are able to leave a little earlier than the 2 months, but want to waive your rent obligation for the period that you will actually leave to the date the 2 months actually falls due, then it is reasonable of you to expect the Landlord to play ball.
If they want to play silly burgers and make you pay another month’s rent, then politely but firmly point out that until such time you receive a formal Section 21 you are not obliged to do anything and that also brings with it a minimum 6 months before you have to leave in any event. All you are looking for is a little flexibility from them in return for the flexibility you have provided yourself. Not at all unreasonable.
Regarding your deposit, I assume this is held in a formal deposit scheme. The Landlord has to justify withholding any deposit monies from you and you can appeal any deductions to the deposit fund managers, who are independent. They will consider both sides of any argument and arbitrate accordingly. Whatever actions you take based on the above, does not affect your right to your deposit being returned unless the Landlord can legitimately make a case to withhold monies.
Nothing in the above potential courses of action would be a legitimate reason
If the landlord wants to play silly burgers, why at the time advise the landlord that the correct notice period is six (6) months? Surely it is to the OP's/tenant's advantage to let the landlord serve an illegal two (2) months Section 21 notice period. At the end of the two month notice period, the OP/tenant can then either advise the landlord of their error, or allow the landlord to take repossession proceedings to the court, where the landlord's case would be surely struck out.The Landlord must serve a Section 21 notice in writing to repossess a property where there are no extraneous issues (rent arrears, anti-social behaviour etc) Actually no reason needs to be provided by the Landlord under a Section 21. (Often referred to as a No Fault Eviction). This is a formal and legal document as opposed to a text/WhatsApp/email message.
Under current legislation, the minimum notice a Landlord is able to apply is 6 months.
Her informal communication to you providing 2 months notice to you is illegal and not binding. You can legitimately refuse to comply.
The Agent is dire and should know how this is supposed to work and be advising the Landlord accordingly.
If the Landlord would like you to leave sooner than in 6 months time, as in this case, then they need to engage with you informally and work in a constructive manner to facilitate this with your full consent and cooperation, which you are not obliged to give. I guess this is why the Landlord has not gone down the Section 21 route initially.
So, that hope for cooperation works both ways. They ought to take a reasonable view and if indeed you are able to leave a little earlier than the 2 months, but want to waive your rent obligation for the period that you will actually leave to the date the 2 months actually falls due, then it is reasonable of you to expect the Landlord to play ball.
If they want to play silly burgers and make you pay another month’s rent, then politely but firmly point out that until such time you receive a formal Section 21 you are not obliged to do anything and that also brings with it a minimum 6 months before you have to leave in any event. All you are looking for is a little flexibility from them in return for the flexibility you have provided yourself. Not at all unreasonable.
Regarding your deposit, I assume this is held in a formal deposit scheme. The Landlord has to justify withholding any deposit monies from you and you can appeal any deductions to the deposit fund managers, who are independent. They will consider both sides of any argument and arbitrate accordingly. Whatever actions you take based on the above, does not affect your right to your deposit being returned unless the Landlord can legitimately make a case to withhold monies.
Nothing in the above potential courses of action would be a legitimate reason
Incidentally nothing stops the OP/tenant bringing the tenancy to an earlier end, by serving their own one month notice.
Wings said:
If the landlord wants to play silly burgers, why at the time advise the landlord that the correct notice period is six (6) months? Surely it is to the OP's/tenant's advantage to let the landlord serve an illegal two (2) months Section 21 notice period. At the end of the two month notice period, the OP/tenant can then either advise the landlord of their error, or allow the landlord to take repossession proceedings to the court, where the landlord's case would be surely struck out.
Incidentally nothing stops the OP/tenant bringing the tenancy to an earlier end, by serving their own one month notice.
I get the impression the OP is not a deliberately confrontational type.Incidentally nothing stops the OP/tenant bringing the tenancy to an earlier end, by serving their own one month notice.
The Landlord has thus far not served a Section 21 of any form based on what the OP has described.
Of course, the OP can serve their own notice.
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