Neighbour, rights of way and boundary dispute rabbit hole...
Discussion
I'd appreciate a steer on where to start with a problem I have had thrust upon me....
EDIT - *news just in* - mentalist's house has just come on the market
2nd EDIT - mentalist has accepted an offer on the house, proceeded to conveyancing and now refuses to engage over resolving issues they've created. There's some more juicy detail on page 4.
FINAL EDIT - *Phew*.... dodged a bullet here. With the sound advice offered in this post (particular thanks to Surveyor
), I avoided legal action, still have my tree and have some lovely new neighbours who are doing wonders to mentalist's old house. I'm a few grand out of pocket, but I no longer have to deal with mentalist and all the issues they created are being reasonably dealt with by the new owners. I count that as a WIN!
I am fortunate to live in a lovely rural location, but not fortunate enough to have avoided having a mentalist for a neighbour.... problem 1.
We have history. Long story... Potted version - I grew up in the village, born and bred. These people moved in over 20 years ago - never contributed to the vibrant village life or community since arrival.
We're old family friends with the owners of both houses that abut their plot, so when neighbour 1 decided they were planning to sell up, I heard about it and bought the house pre-market (at full market value). Bent over backwards to be friendly and reasonable to the mentalist neighbour, but all approaches rebuffed. I now have a boundary with mentalist. Included with this is a historic right to 'pass and repass' over a strip of mentalist's land along the boundary, effectively behind my house which abuts the boundary. This is problem 2.
Time passes. Neighbour 2 decides they were planning to sell up (infirmity), I negotiate to buy a parcel of (very expensive!) land, part of which is also offered to mentalist neighbour by executors of estate. Mentalist declines to purchase, I accept as the land makes a huge difference to my plot and buy all the land, including the bit offered to mentalist. I now have a bigger boundary with mentalist which includes a hedge. This is problem 3.
I consider applying for planning for extension - consult with mentalist, explain what we're trying to do, ask if they have any preferences/objections and basically do my level best to be approachable and reasonable whilst producing a workable outcome for us. Discussions appear fruitful, so planning applied for and neighbour goes mentalist - 5 page objection letter, ludicrously restrictive party wall agreement with penalty clauses, huge surveyors expenses etc. etc..... which I suck up. I do my best, but neighbour is now determined I am Beelzebub incarnate. I am always civil and reasonable in all interactions - mentalist... not so much! The job gets finished, but we're never going to be friends!
Years pass. Mentalist is mentalist - complains about anything and everything. I remain civil and reasonable and try to avoid all interactions... basically just get on with my life.
Fast forward to last week. Mentalist has a workman on site cutting hedge (my hedge) which now gives me problem 3. I know it's my hedge as the prior owners had cut both sides of it since the 1950's, until mentalist prevented them cutting mentalist's side preferring 'natural look'. I have continued to cut my side of hedge yearly and left mentalist's side as previously requested. The first I know of any work is a chipper clattering it's way through bits of my hedge as it's turned into mulch. I then find a note in my porch warning me that mentalist has workmen starting erecting a fence! Again, I am super reasonable... talk to workmen establish what they are doing and agree they can do what they need to do to get their job done, but to leave as much of the hedge as possible so I don't have to look at mentalist's fence. I even interact with mentalist in reasonable terms.
Workmen decimate hedge completely, ripping out 90%.
Workmen erect fence, directed by mentalist as to where to put corners / returns etc. I don't agree that corners are where the corners are for the boundary, as new fence suggests boundary excludes a large tree that I believe marks the corner of the boundary and a load of remaining hedge, all of which belongs to me (again historical precedent of maintenance from prior owner). I approach mentalist reasonably - they now claim tree is theirs, discussions reach a stalemate. So now I have a boundary dispute too.....
Problem 1 - mentalist neighbour, not much I can do about this one. However I am now sick of dealing with them and wish to wrap up all problems, establish boundary and responsibilities verbatim and restore right of way, removing any further need to have to interact with mentalist. I am pretty miffed about the loss of my hedge and am no longer inclined to be either reasonable or flexible with mentalist. Time to burn bridges and 'bring it on' as mentalist is clearly always going to be mentalist.
Problem 2 - 4 or 5 years ago mentalist blocked access to my right of way by erecting a fence across it and gates which can only be opened from within their boundary. If outside their property, I can no longer access my right of way (even though I almost never use it, I wish to defend the principle of it and the right). There are a few questions here - can one ever lose the rights to a right of way? what would be the best way of forcing mentalist to restore access to right of way?
Problem 3 - I really don't want a boundary dispute as I know there are no winners bar the legal teams. There are no documents to record verbatim where either the boundaries or where hedge ownership lies. Land Registry plans are insufficient to determine anything. I know that, in time, her fence will effectively become the boundary line and I would really like to avoid losing my tree and remaining hedge.... What is the best way of establishing all this stuff now, so I don't have more problems in the future? I am tempted to simply contract a workman and erect a fence myself where I think the boundary goes, to include my tree and circumvent her fence.... what repercussions would result from doing this? I have one ace up my sleeve - access to descendant of original hedge owner (from whom I bought the land) who can confirm they cut both sides of hedge from the 1950's until requested not to cut mentalist's side, which I feel should establish precedent that hedge and tree is mine, not mentalist's. How am I best to use this?
Please, wise and learned folk of SP&L, educate and help a luddite, particularly with what legal professional I need to engage...
EDIT - *news just in* - mentalist's house has just come on the market
2nd EDIT - mentalist has accepted an offer on the house, proceeded to conveyancing and now refuses to engage over resolving issues they've created. There's some more juicy detail on page 4.
FINAL EDIT - *Phew*.... dodged a bullet here. With the sound advice offered in this post (particular thanks to Surveyor
), I avoided legal action, still have my tree and have some lovely new neighbours who are doing wonders to mentalist's old house. I'm a few grand out of pocket, but I no longer have to deal with mentalist and all the issues they created are being reasonably dealt with by the new owners. I count that as a WIN!I am fortunate to live in a lovely rural location, but not fortunate enough to have avoided having a mentalist for a neighbour.... problem 1.
We have history. Long story... Potted version - I grew up in the village, born and bred. These people moved in over 20 years ago - never contributed to the vibrant village life or community since arrival.
We're old family friends with the owners of both houses that abut their plot, so when neighbour 1 decided they were planning to sell up, I heard about it and bought the house pre-market (at full market value). Bent over backwards to be friendly and reasonable to the mentalist neighbour, but all approaches rebuffed. I now have a boundary with mentalist. Included with this is a historic right to 'pass and repass' over a strip of mentalist's land along the boundary, effectively behind my house which abuts the boundary. This is problem 2.
Time passes. Neighbour 2 decides they were planning to sell up (infirmity), I negotiate to buy a parcel of (very expensive!) land, part of which is also offered to mentalist neighbour by executors of estate. Mentalist declines to purchase, I accept as the land makes a huge difference to my plot and buy all the land, including the bit offered to mentalist. I now have a bigger boundary with mentalist which includes a hedge. This is problem 3.
I consider applying for planning for extension - consult with mentalist, explain what we're trying to do, ask if they have any preferences/objections and basically do my level best to be approachable and reasonable whilst producing a workable outcome for us. Discussions appear fruitful, so planning applied for and neighbour goes mentalist - 5 page objection letter, ludicrously restrictive party wall agreement with penalty clauses, huge surveyors expenses etc. etc..... which I suck up. I do my best, but neighbour is now determined I am Beelzebub incarnate. I am always civil and reasonable in all interactions - mentalist... not so much! The job gets finished, but we're never going to be friends!
Years pass. Mentalist is mentalist - complains about anything and everything. I remain civil and reasonable and try to avoid all interactions... basically just get on with my life.
Fast forward to last week. Mentalist has a workman on site cutting hedge (my hedge) which now gives me problem 3. I know it's my hedge as the prior owners had cut both sides of it since the 1950's, until mentalist prevented them cutting mentalist's side preferring 'natural look'. I have continued to cut my side of hedge yearly and left mentalist's side as previously requested. The first I know of any work is a chipper clattering it's way through bits of my hedge as it's turned into mulch. I then find a note in my porch warning me that mentalist has workmen starting erecting a fence! Again, I am super reasonable... talk to workmen establish what they are doing and agree they can do what they need to do to get their job done, but to leave as much of the hedge as possible so I don't have to look at mentalist's fence. I even interact with mentalist in reasonable terms.
Workmen decimate hedge completely, ripping out 90%.
Workmen erect fence, directed by mentalist as to where to put corners / returns etc. I don't agree that corners are where the corners are for the boundary, as new fence suggests boundary excludes a large tree that I believe marks the corner of the boundary and a load of remaining hedge, all of which belongs to me (again historical precedent of maintenance from prior owner). I approach mentalist reasonably - they now claim tree is theirs, discussions reach a stalemate. So now I have a boundary dispute too.....
Problem 1 - mentalist neighbour, not much I can do about this one. However I am now sick of dealing with them and wish to wrap up all problems, establish boundary and responsibilities verbatim and restore right of way, removing any further need to have to interact with mentalist. I am pretty miffed about the loss of my hedge and am no longer inclined to be either reasonable or flexible with mentalist. Time to burn bridges and 'bring it on' as mentalist is clearly always going to be mentalist.
Problem 2 - 4 or 5 years ago mentalist blocked access to my right of way by erecting a fence across it and gates which can only be opened from within their boundary. If outside their property, I can no longer access my right of way (even though I almost never use it, I wish to defend the principle of it and the right). There are a few questions here - can one ever lose the rights to a right of way? what would be the best way of forcing mentalist to restore access to right of way?
Problem 3 - I really don't want a boundary dispute as I know there are no winners bar the legal teams. There are no documents to record verbatim where either the boundaries or where hedge ownership lies. Land Registry plans are insufficient to determine anything. I know that, in time, her fence will effectively become the boundary line and I would really like to avoid losing my tree and remaining hedge.... What is the best way of establishing all this stuff now, so I don't have more problems in the future? I am tempted to simply contract a workman and erect a fence myself where I think the boundary goes, to include my tree and circumvent her fence.... what repercussions would result from doing this? I have one ace up my sleeve - access to descendant of original hedge owner (from whom I bought the land) who can confirm they cut both sides of hedge from the 1950's until requested not to cut mentalist's side, which I feel should establish precedent that hedge and tree is mine, not mentalist's. How am I best to use this?
Please, wise and learned folk of SP&L, educate and help a luddite, particularly with what legal professional I need to engage...
Edited by larrylamb11 on Monday 26th July 15:31
Edited by larrylamb11 on Thursday 23 September 22:50
Edited by larrylamb11 on Friday 11th February 12:38
Christ, you seem to have a right nutter there. Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors has a consumer guide to boundary disputes and even a dispute resolution/mediation service as an alternative to legal action. I think I'd try contacting a RICS surveyor specialising in boundaries and take it from there. Good luck whatever happens!
https://www.ricsfirms.com/residential/legal-issues...
https://www.ricsfirms.com/media/1180/rics-consumer...
https://www.ricsfirms.com/residential/legal-issues...
https://www.ricsfirms.com/media/1180/rics-consumer...
There is a good forum over at Gardenlaw with some specialists in this field. However, if you think the fence is on your land, remove it. I would resist getting in to legals. You are right though, if the fence remains it will become the boundary. Also, a right of way cannot be extinguished except by agreement.
You might also advise that you can pretty much stop mentalist ever selling their house easily by saying you will register a boundary dispute the second they try and sell it. If you start a dispute at the land registry and then sit on your hands it can drag out a long time - and who will buy a house with a live boundary dispute...
You might also advise that you can pretty much stop mentalist ever selling their house easily by saying you will register a boundary dispute the second they try and sell it. If you start a dispute at the land registry and then sit on your hands it can drag out a long time - and who will buy a house with a live boundary dispute...
Edited by mr rusty on Sunday 11th April 23:53
“You can’t reason with crazy” is a good motto to remember in these scenarios.
My (potentially unhelpful) advice to you is to stop being friendly or accommodating, find a pitbull of a lawyer and make crazy neighbour’s lives a misery within the confines of the law until they sell up.
You can then buy the final piece of land for your jigsaw!
My (potentially unhelpful) advice to you is to stop being friendly or accommodating, find a pitbull of a lawyer and make crazy neighbour’s lives a misery within the confines of the law until they sell up.
You can then buy the final piece of land for your jigsaw!
Hi,
I have learnt over the years that life is full of bullies, whether it's at home, the workplace or elsewhere. These people thrive on being top dog over those who are more decent, quieter, and amenable.
9 times out of 10, if you remain the decent, quieter and amenable person, that bully will focus on you and they will either continue their course of behaviour or ratchet it up a gear.
If what you are saying is accurate, you have tried to be decent. I would strongly suggest that you now have to start showing him a different side to yourself, one that is awkward, obstructive, and if need be, slightly aggressive (definitely not physically).
As a previous poster has suggested, a boundary dispute if he is considering selling his house is a start. Start documenting everything. If you can show that the fence is on your land, wait until he is out and then remove it.
A next stage can be to start treating him at his own game. Make life uncomfortable for him whilst remaining within the law. There are many things that you could do that I don't need to list here.
Like other people on here, I have had involvement in many, many neighbour disputes (not personally and in my previous life) and the weaker person will always come out worse. I'm saddened to say that but it's true.
He wants to get to you mentally, so the best thing to do is treat it like a game. If he's awkward then he gets the same or the next level back from you. After a while there will be every chance that he will ease off and direct his behaviour elsewhere. There is much more chance of this happening if you go this route, rather than being a decent neighbour.
Andy
I have learnt over the years that life is full of bullies, whether it's at home, the workplace or elsewhere. These people thrive on being top dog over those who are more decent, quieter, and amenable.
9 times out of 10, if you remain the decent, quieter and amenable person, that bully will focus on you and they will either continue their course of behaviour or ratchet it up a gear.
If what you are saying is accurate, you have tried to be decent. I would strongly suggest that you now have to start showing him a different side to yourself, one that is awkward, obstructive, and if need be, slightly aggressive (definitely not physically).
As a previous poster has suggested, a boundary dispute if he is considering selling his house is a start. Start documenting everything. If you can show that the fence is on your land, wait until he is out and then remove it.
A next stage can be to start treating him at his own game. Make life uncomfortable for him whilst remaining within the law. There are many things that you could do that I don't need to list here.
Like other people on here, I have had involvement in many, many neighbour disputes (not personally and in my previous life) and the weaker person will always come out worse. I'm saddened to say that but it's true.
He wants to get to you mentally, so the best thing to do is treat it like a game. If he's awkward then he gets the same or the next level back from you. After a while there will be every chance that he will ease off and direct his behaviour elsewhere. There is much more chance of this happening if you go this route, rather than being a decent neighbour.
Andy
We also have an utter loon, thankfully this individual is half a mile away, but unfortunately has a right of way over one of our fields. This one’s lunacy starts with generally being an arse about everything, and ends up with random accusations about us sterilising her cows (in collusion with the local GP apparently), stealing her dog, spying on her with drones. ..... needless to say, none of these are true.
Her plan was to use the right of way to flog one of her fields as pony paddock, and essentially build a road up the side of our field. First we knew of it was random horse people driving up and down our field.
I can only recommend quietly taking legal advice, because before you start a fight, you need to be very sure of your position. I spent close to a grand on a very capable solicitor at a firm that specialises in land. Armed with advice (summary an agricultural right of way does not let you tend horses unless they are used for agricultural purposes), we told her to sod off and locked the gate. There was a certain amount of hysteria, but we said “we’re very sure of our position, **** off”, and that was that.
Her plan was to use the right of way to flog one of her fields as pony paddock, and essentially build a road up the side of our field. First we knew of it was random horse people driving up and down our field.
I can only recommend quietly taking legal advice, because before you start a fight, you need to be very sure of your position. I spent close to a grand on a very capable solicitor at a firm that specialises in land. Armed with advice (summary an agricultural right of way does not let you tend horses unless they are used for agricultural purposes), we told her to sod off and locked the gate. There was a certain amount of hysteria, but we said “we’re very sure of our position, **** off”, and that was that.
What about a polite seven day letter saying you've built your fence on my land and, if you don't move it back to the original boundary, I will remove it.
Then remove it and put it on their land. If there is then a dispute, they will have to start it and that will be expensive for them as they will have to prove that they are in the right which, we guess, they can't.
Presumably you have some legal expenses insurance....
Then remove it and put it on their land. If there is then a dispute, they will have to start it and that will be expensive for them as they will have to prove that they are in the right which, we guess, they can't.
Presumably you have some legal expenses insurance....
Arguing or trying to put fences in etc is only going to wind them up more.
I think you need to get a clear definition of where the legal boundaries are, then put up your fence/hedge/whatever as you wish.
If you don't and just stick up fences etc the neighbour is just going to raise a dispute.
If you get the boundaries legally defined and agreed with the land registry they can get upset as much as they like, you're in the right.
I think you need to get a clear definition of where the legal boundaries are, then put up your fence/hedge/whatever as you wish.
If you don't and just stick up fences etc the neighbour is just going to raise a dispute.
If you get the boundaries legally defined and agreed with the land registry they can get upset as much as they like, you're in the right.
Had similar with new neighbours of my parents. They wanted to take out mature hedge and replace with fence delightfully telling my Dad, "Well you'll be dead soon so what does it matter to you!"
I stepped in and negotiated a deal that agreed to the new fence and exact location and then they cheekily erected it on my parents land by about a metre. They blamed the fencers when questioned but did relocate it to the correct place. My Dad took great joy in pissing very loudly in the early hours knowing that their bedroom extension was right on the other side of the very thin upstairs toilet wall which is now a family tradition that I intend to continue for many years to come. Probably the only benefit of an enlarged prostate!
I stepped in and negotiated a deal that agreed to the new fence and exact location and then they cheekily erected it on my parents land by about a metre. They blamed the fencers when questioned but did relocate it to the correct place. My Dad took great joy in pissing very loudly in the early hours knowing that their bedroom extension was right on the other side of the very thin upstairs toilet wall which is now a family tradition that I intend to continue for many years to come. Probably the only benefit of an enlarged prostate!
Thanks for replies and thoughts!
I'm talking mentalist in the British sense - nutter, loon, whatever.... examples of tactics include silent observation, i.e. mentalist will simply stand and stare whilst one goes about an activity, such as chopping logs or mowing paddock etc.
If I have workmen on site and they play a radio (normal service for most trades) mentalist will complain about radio.... When trades are working at mentalist's radios are free to blare....
It's a friendly village, everyone waves at eachother when out and about, particularly in their cars - mentalist, never, with a positive effort to stare dead ahead and ignore...
I am aware there is a lot of 'this is mine because I've (or prior owner) has maintained it'... the legal boundaries are ancient and not defined in detail. The Land Reg plans show the general shape of the boundary, not the exact location, there are no T-marks defining ownership and the old deeds do not define where specific responsibility lies. The only guidance is the beliefs passed from generation to generation and the historical precedent and this DOES support my belief - but would that be sufficient legally? and how can I use this to my advantage? Ultimately a lot of the fence they have erected I don't have an issue with - they unnecessarily ripped out my hedge to enable them to put their fence in, but actually put the fence on what I am happy to accept is their land. It's just the return portion of their fence that will come to define the corner of the boundary I'm not happy with.
As tempted as I am to rip out disputed fence when mentalist isn't looking, would that not constitute criminal damage? There is nothing to prove this fence is on my land....
I really don't want to threaten boundary dispute or indeed actually get into one.... making it difficult to sell houses goes two ways and frankly I'd do everything in my power to support any effort mentalist makes to sell up!
RICS is a good suggestion, I was on first name terms with my surveyor as a result of the party wall agreement with mentalist, so I might try an informal conversation with them as a first port of call.... I'm pretty much resigned to seeking proper legal opinion in due course, but I want to get a feel as to whether I am on a hiding to nothing first....
I'm talking mentalist in the British sense - nutter, loon, whatever.... examples of tactics include silent observation, i.e. mentalist will simply stand and stare whilst one goes about an activity, such as chopping logs or mowing paddock etc.
If I have workmen on site and they play a radio (normal service for most trades) mentalist will complain about radio.... When trades are working at mentalist's radios are free to blare....
It's a friendly village, everyone waves at eachother when out and about, particularly in their cars - mentalist, never, with a positive effort to stare dead ahead and ignore...
I am aware there is a lot of 'this is mine because I've (or prior owner) has maintained it'... the legal boundaries are ancient and not defined in detail. The Land Reg plans show the general shape of the boundary, not the exact location, there are no T-marks defining ownership and the old deeds do not define where specific responsibility lies. The only guidance is the beliefs passed from generation to generation and the historical precedent and this DOES support my belief - but would that be sufficient legally? and how can I use this to my advantage? Ultimately a lot of the fence they have erected I don't have an issue with - they unnecessarily ripped out my hedge to enable them to put their fence in, but actually put the fence on what I am happy to accept is their land. It's just the return portion of their fence that will come to define the corner of the boundary I'm not happy with.
As tempted as I am to rip out disputed fence when mentalist isn't looking, would that not constitute criminal damage? There is nothing to prove this fence is on my land....
I really don't want to threaten boundary dispute or indeed actually get into one.... making it difficult to sell houses goes two ways and frankly I'd do everything in my power to support any effort mentalist makes to sell up!
RICS is a good suggestion, I was on first name terms with my surveyor as a result of the party wall agreement with mentalist, so I might try an informal conversation with them as a first port of call.... I'm pretty much resigned to seeking proper legal opinion in due course, but I want to get a feel as to whether I am on a hiding to nothing first....
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