Southwark Council and 'cloned plate' problem
Discussion
Just wanted to share an unpleasant experience with Southwark Council who have accused a family member of driving a car in a prohibited zone - essentially just like a bus lane violation.
Family member has only recently returned to driving after a 20 year break, so has kept to doing short journeys in the Manchester area (could go no further with lockdown restrictions and no need to do so anyway), clocking up a magnificent total of 600 miles last year, evidenced by the difference logged on the 2020 and 2021 MOT certificates.
Family member has a distinctive plate on their SILVER car, a TOYOTA that is a SALOON. The plate is the format of A 12 BCD.
Family remember has received an aggressive and accusative letter in the post saying that they were in London, committed a violation, and supplied a distant photograph of a black BMW X3 where the reg plate can be made out as [] A 12 BCD, the first digit being blacked out presumably with tape, so it reads the same as the family member's registration.
We worked out that it was a BMX X3 ourselves (clearly not a silver Toyota saloon) and that the plate was obscured. Going to the DVLA website, we ran the sequence of letters through and found what can be the only actual car registered with that plate (which was taxed but no MOT).
Family member calls Southwark and disputes the ticket, giving coherent reasons. Southwark ask for a crime number. Family member then calls the Met Police who said that they do not give crime numbers for such things. This is explained on the phone to Southwark who accept that there will no crime number, but settle for sending them photos of the car that has never left Manchester.
After that, further letters from Southwark, with more aggressive tone, clearly ignoring what has been sent to them. Repeat - another phone call to Southwark, another call to the Met, photos sent again. Still no progress or acknowledgement. Indeed, the matter continues.
So....it is a ballache not of our making. Some law dodging toe rag 220 miles driving about in a different car with obscured plate and no MOT, but family member is presumed guilty and despite representations, Southwark have their fingers in their ears.
My advice is to let it go to court, presenting evidence that the family member has a different car, lives 220 miles from the offence, and has communicated clearly with the council who for want of a better word are ignorant. Southwark are plain silly.
Family member posted this on Facebook. A friend came forward saying that someone cloned their plates to the same make, model and colour of theirs, and were woken up by bailiffs. That is as much as a I know, but the common denominator is a London borough that presumes someone is guilty despite presenting reasonable defence. I thought in this country it had to be a 'balance of probabilities' to be found guilty!
Ridiculous, awful, stressful, time wasting situation!! Beggars belief.
Family member has only recently returned to driving after a 20 year break, so has kept to doing short journeys in the Manchester area (could go no further with lockdown restrictions and no need to do so anyway), clocking up a magnificent total of 600 miles last year, evidenced by the difference logged on the 2020 and 2021 MOT certificates.
Family member has a distinctive plate on their SILVER car, a TOYOTA that is a SALOON. The plate is the format of A 12 BCD.
Family remember has received an aggressive and accusative letter in the post saying that they were in London, committed a violation, and supplied a distant photograph of a black BMW X3 where the reg plate can be made out as [] A 12 BCD, the first digit being blacked out presumably with tape, so it reads the same as the family member's registration.
We worked out that it was a BMX X3 ourselves (clearly not a silver Toyota saloon) and that the plate was obscured. Going to the DVLA website, we ran the sequence of letters through and found what can be the only actual car registered with that plate (which was taxed but no MOT).
Family member calls Southwark and disputes the ticket, giving coherent reasons. Southwark ask for a crime number. Family member then calls the Met Police who said that they do not give crime numbers for such things. This is explained on the phone to Southwark who accept that there will no crime number, but settle for sending them photos of the car that has never left Manchester.
After that, further letters from Southwark, with more aggressive tone, clearly ignoring what has been sent to them. Repeat - another phone call to Southwark, another call to the Met, photos sent again. Still no progress or acknowledgement. Indeed, the matter continues.
So....it is a ballache not of our making. Some law dodging toe rag 220 miles driving about in a different car with obscured plate and no MOT, but family member is presumed guilty and despite representations, Southwark have their fingers in their ears.
My advice is to let it go to court, presenting evidence that the family member has a different car, lives 220 miles from the offence, and has communicated clearly with the council who for want of a better word are ignorant. Southwark are plain silly.
Family member posted this on Facebook. A friend came forward saying that someone cloned their plates to the same make, model and colour of theirs, and were woken up by bailiffs. That is as much as a I know, but the common denominator is a London borough that presumes someone is guilty despite presenting reasonable defence. I thought in this country it had to be a 'balance of probabilities' to be found guilty!
Ridiculous, awful, stressful, time wasting situation!! Beggars belief.
Edited by TUS373 on Monday 17th May 10:51
Rather than calling them, why not write or e-mail, with a picture of the plate on a silver Toyota, a copy of the V5 showing the registration belongs to a silver Toyota, and a copy of their photo showing a black BMW? I understand that it's annoying but saying "not my car, mate" down the phone is fairly unlikely to get anywhere.
As for the other case of a cloned plate, there's likely to be much more to that story. The only way it would get as far as bailiffs is if the recipient of the charge ignored all the communications up to and including court papers. Either that or they hadn't updated their address with the DVLA...
None of this smacks of a specific problem; it's just of a couple of people who haven't gone about things the right way.
As for the other case of a cloned plate, there's likely to be much more to that story. The only way it would get as far as bailiffs is if the recipient of the charge ignored all the communications up to and including court papers. Either that or they hadn't updated their address with the DVLA...
None of this smacks of a specific problem; it's just of a couple of people who haven't gone about things the right way.
I worked at a London council, and have seen the letters we send for debt (albeit not motoring related debt). We use behavioural psychologists to help write them, which is quite common across public and private sectors I believe.
Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
spikyone said:
Rather than calling them, why not write or e-mail, with a picture of the plate on a silver Toyota, a copy of the V5 showing the registration belongs to a silver Toyota, and a copy of their photo showing a black BMW? I understand that it's annoying but saying "not my car, mate" down the phone is fairly unlikely to get anywhere.
As for the other case of a cloned plate, there's likely to be much more to that story. The only way it would get as far as bailiffs is if the recipient of the charge ignored all the communications up to and including court papers. Either that or they hadn't updated their address with the DVLA...
None of this smacks of a specific problem; it's just of a couple of people who haven't gone about things the right way.
Phone calls were all followed up with emails of the photos to evidence not the car in question, including copies of MOTs etc. Totally ignored by 'the system'.As for the other case of a cloned plate, there's likely to be much more to that story. The only way it would get as far as bailiffs is if the recipient of the charge ignored all the communications up to and including court papers. Either that or they hadn't updated their address with the DVLA...
None of this smacks of a specific problem; it's just of a couple of people who haven't gone about things the right way.
Ian Geary said:
I worked at a London council, and have seen the letters we send for debt (albeit not motoring related debt). We use behavioural psychologists to help write them, which is quite common across public and private sectors I believe.
Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
Thank you. Certainly the letters get attention, especially if directed at a guilty party but not the kind of thing you wish to receive when you are completely innocent and already under real stresses. Letters responded to, but sadly everything ignored again by Southwark. Highly frustrating.Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
Ian Geary said:
I worked at a London council, and have seen the letters we send for debt (albeit not motoring related debt). We use behavioural psychologists to help write them, which is quite common across public and private sectors I believe.
Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
All well and good, however how hard can it be for someone to spend just a few mins checking numberplate matches car before sending out.Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
However, there is no excuse, it's simply incompetence.
I would understand, to an extent, if the car in London was same make/model and colour as the car in the photo. i.e. not much more could quickly be checked, but those 3 checks could.
Try going through the complaints process? https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy...
Sheepshanks said:
Try going through the complaints process? https://www.southwark.gov.uk/council-and-democracy...
Thanks - this is good.Our plan is to contact the Council ombudsman. As soon as they get involved, it is truly impartial. We also believe that they levy a £200 charge upon the council which is under complaint. Seems fair! We have given up trying to reason with those who ignore us!
megaphone said:
Did you go through the proper appeals process to appeal the PCN? Don't waste your time phoning etc, just appeal, give evidence then, If they refuse appeal then take it further.
Yes. as I have not been handling this myself, but believe that appeal was made as per instructions given, but to no effect.TUS373 said:
megaphone said:
Did you go through the proper appeals process to appeal the PCN? Don't waste your time phoning etc, just appeal, give evidence then, If they refuse appeal then take it further.
Yes. as I have not been handling this myself, but believe that appeal was made as per instructions given, but to no effect.Try and be concise and to the point, give pertinent evidence only, don't ramble about irrelevant stuff like you have in your OP.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appeals-pro...
Edited by megaphone on Monday 17th May 18:41
Ian Geary said:
I worked at a London council, and have seen the letters we send for debt (albeit not motoring related debt). We use behavioural psychologists to help write them, which is quite common across public and private sectors I believe.
Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
The problem with this approach is that it causes unjustified distress to those receiving the letters before it has been established that such an approach is necessary. I had it with council tax. After moving house and changing my council tax the bank forgot to change the reference number so, while the council tax was being paid, the council had no record of it being paid against my account. Next thing I knew I was receiving letters threatening court and debt collectors. I could understand this approach if I'd been persistently dodging my council tax but to take this approach at the outset before they'd established that there was a perfectly innocent explanation was bang out of order.Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
When I discovered the error and pointed it out they found the money and applied it accordingly but, when I pointed out that the tone of their initial communication was unnecessarily threatening and aggressive, the best that the two brain-celled cretin could come back with was to reiterate that the reference number needs to be correct, completely missing the point that I was asking them to acknowledge the unnecessarily threatening tone of their initial communication and the distress it has caused.
I don't doubt that behavioural psychologists are used to help compose these things - to cause as much stress and anxiety as possible no doubt. Basically, local government know you're forced by law to pay them a big chunk of your hard earned cash every month, so they take great pleasure in s
tting on you while you're doing it.Totally agree. I suspect that some people will just pay up to make the problem go away, even if completely innocent. There is no escalation - just a series of nasty letters where the computer/recipient just keeps saying 'no'. There is no thought process or reasoning after pointing out the error.
Going to see if there is a place to report motoring offences in London and shop the toe rag that caused all this so at least it builds up some 'intelligence' of wrongdoing if they get tugged for something.
Going to see if there is a place to report motoring offences in London and shop the toe rag that caused all this so at least it builds up some 'intelligence' of wrongdoing if they get tugged for something.
Ian Geary said:
I worked at a London council, and have seen the letters we send for debt (albeit not motoring related debt). We use behavioural psychologists to help write them, which is quite common across public and private sectors I believe.
Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
Sorry, but what "loss"? It's not like it's bad debt. It's a bill the council have raised for an infringement of a rule they put in place largely to generate revenue.Aggressive isn't the word I'd use... but they are written to get the attention of the people reading them, and be clear about consequences.
If it was a Sergeant Wilson type letter " would you mind awfully paying this bill" we'd collect sod all from the "won't pays", and council tax would get diverted into covering the loss.
The poor administration is obviously not good, but although the traffic offence is no fault of your own, the template letters loaded into the debt recovery system won't know that.
Hopefully this provides some context.
Given all money raised is the result of an infringement I think they need to be on top of their game with processing them and making sure they don't "fine" anyone by mistake seeing many people will have been caught and charged for making a mistake.
Maybe the op needs to raise their own invoices for administration charges and the infringement of the erroneous use of data. Its easy to look at the picture and see its not a silver car.
OP - looks like you could be dealing with an automated outsourced service.
On the Southwark Council website: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/challenge-a-p...
the 'Challenge a parking fine or PCN' link takes you to
https://southwark.self-serve.co.uk/Welcome
which is used by many councils to 'administer' PCNs, see:
http://www.barbourlogic.co.uk/our-clients/
Having read this (below), perhaps it's not surprising you're getting nowhere if all correspondence is dealt with by them - good luck!
http://www.barbourlogic.co.uk/self-serve/
On the Southwark Council website: https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/challenge-a-p...
the 'Challenge a parking fine or PCN' link takes you to
https://southwark.self-serve.co.uk/Welcome
which is used by many councils to 'administer' PCNs, see:
http://www.barbourlogic.co.uk/our-clients/
Having read this (below), perhaps it's not surprising you're getting nowhere if all correspondence is dealt with by them - good luck!
http://www.barbourlogic.co.uk/self-serve/
TUS373 said:
Thanks - this is good.
Our plan is to contact the Council ombudsman. As soon as they get involved, it is truly impartial. We also believe that they levy a £200 charge upon the council which is under complaint. Seems fair! We have given up trying to reason with those who ignore us!
The ombudsman won't consider it until you have exhausted the council's own complaints procedure, they will check with the council. They don't issue charge to the council only if fault is found and then it goes to the complainant. They may not even consider this as they may deem it an issue for court/ has its own statutory appeals process, same reason they don't look at parking fines.Our plan is to contact the Council ombudsman. As soon as they get involved, it is truly impartial. We also believe that they levy a £200 charge upon the council which is under complaint. Seems fair! We have given up trying to reason with those who ignore us!
If you want to complain your best bet is to go to the council itself but as a poster above said unless you have emailed the service with all the details it will just be he said she said. Easiest solution is to write a letter with a copy of the v5 saying it's clearly an different car.shoukd be simple, cc in their legal department.
Edited by Throwaway555 on Tuesday 18th May 07:46
I live in Southwark and have contacted the leader of the council on a number of occasions regarding several different matters. He has always been very responsive. Perhaps you could email him and ask him to help sort this out? He will be able to lean on the right people.
His contact details are as follows:
Councillor Kieron Williams
Leader of the Council
Work: 020 7525 0330
Work: kieron.williams@southwark.gov.uk
His contact details are as follows:
Councillor Kieron Williams
Leader of the Council
Work: 020 7525 0330
Work: kieron.williams@southwark.gov.uk
shouldbworking said:
I'm amazed the amount of time and effort people are willing to go to trying to navigate a terrible system. You have irrefutable evidence that it wasn't you, why are you worried / why are you chasing? Let them waste their time coming to you.
..because, as someone mentioned above, if you ignore it then ultimately you'll have someone at the door. They'll call when your missus is at home on her own. And they're not usually like the ones you see on telly.Sheepshanks said:
..because, as someone mentioned above, if you ignore it then ultimately you'll have someone at the door. They'll call when your missus is at home on her own. And they're not usually like the ones you see on telly.
In my experience, the chance of that happening is negligible. Living in the den of criminality that is Hackney, I’ve had several people use my address to order stuff and run up bills. My policy is to tell the organisation once, and once only. As expected, they ignore it, and continue to send snotty letters which get filed in the bin. I’ve never, ever, had anyone show up at the door. Eventually the letters stop. Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff