Bank Transfers Being Reclaimed

[KTMsm]

I've started a new topic to try to get all the info in one thread and have changed a few minor details to avoid issues as I intend to take it further

In summary I agreed to sell a car for £4000, I agreed a deposit of £100 and to take his car in part exchange but he wanted new brake pads on mine

I ordered the pads which took 4 days to come, when I called him to collect he said he'd changed his mind and wanted his £100 back, I said it was non returnable at the time and I'd done work and cancelled the ad so my loss was at least £100 regardless

I heard no more but was annoyed as there was a good profit in his part exchange

A few days later, I discovered that my bank account had been frozen as he had alleged some sort of fraud

I managed to get it unfrozen 24hrs later, with just the "disputed" £100 being held

After 5 days I finally had my first contact from the complaints department saying they'd given him the money - the fraud department only contacted me for minor details and never gave me any information "due to covid" they couldn't talk on the phone

After spending 5hrs on the phone and waiting over 14 days I finally have the bank's final resolution - they are giving me £100 back plus £100 compensation - which doesn't cover my time / aggravation IMO and more to the point the idiot who clearly made false allegations, still has his money back.

They refuse to tell me what was alleged or under what regulations / law they have operated

All I can glean is that under the "Auto Push Payment" system they had no choice but to refund it

I intend to take this to the Ombudsman but the bank insist I have no right to see what was alleged against me and that they acted properly, implying that the other bank shouldn't have started the APP - presumably I can't act against them as I'm not their customer ?

I'm more concerned how this happened, I sell a lot of cars and take bank transfers, whilst this was only £100 next time it could be thousands and I can't believe that I have been given almost no information by the bank

I'm certainly taking it to the Ombudsman and am considering taking the buyer to Court for my losses both due to him breaking the contract and his subsequent allegations but I need to find out what they were.

Can anyone answer the following :
Under what regulations / laws can the banks remove money from your account like this ?
Do you have a right to know what's been claimed against you ?
Since when did Banks get involved in civil disputes ?

[Canon_Fodder]

On your last point, it was an alleged fraud, not a civil dispute.

[Smurfsarepeopletoo]

The banks wont tell you what the allegations are as it could be classed as tipping off if the police were investigating you for fraud or some other illegal activity.

[Durzel]

KTMsm said:

I'm more concerned how this happened, I sell a lot of cars and take bank transfers, whilst this was only £100 next time it could be thousands and I can't believe that I have been given almost no information by the bank

It could've been millions! It wasn't though, it was £100.

KTMsm said:

I'm certainly taking it to the Ombudsman and am considering taking the buyer to Court for my losses both due to him breaking the contract and his subsequent allegations but I need to find out what they were.

So, you've got your money back and you've received compensation - what is your argument going to be to the Ombudsman?

Also just lol at taking someone to court when a) you've been compensated and b) you don't even know the substance of what was alleged.

[mmm-five]

You could always use the contract terms you both agreed to when you took the deposit, to raise a claim against the buyer for grabbing his non-refundable deposit back...but as has already been said, you'll need to justify your specific losses as you seem to be £100 up so far!

[Smurfsarepeopletoo]

Also, do you have anything stating the deposit was non refundable, it could simply be that he has told his bank that you are refusing to return the deposit, and there was nothing agreed that it was a non refundable deposit.

[Mezzanine]

Have heard a few anecdotal stories about this sort of stuff happening when buying second hand watches.

Buyer sends the money so it’s visible in your account, you send out the watch but they contact their bank and recall the money.

Apparently you can only recall payment on the same day you send the payment, so it pays to send the watch (or whatever) out the next day.

[AJL308]

Durzel said:

KTMsm said:

I'm more concerned how this happened, I sell a lot of cars and take bank transfers, whilst this was only £100 next time it could be thousands and I can't believe that I have been given almost no information by the bank

It could've been millions! It wasn't though, it was £100.

KTMsm said:

I'm certainly taking it to the Ombudsman and am considering taking the buyer to Court for my losses both due to him breaking the contract and his subsequent allegations but I need to find out what they were.

So, you've got your money back and you've received compensation - what is your argument going to be to the Ombudsman?

Also just lol at taking someone to court when a) you've been compensated and b) you don't even know the substance of what was alleged.

Isn't there the argument that the bank has on some way interfered with a private contractual matter? The buyer was contracted to purchase and the seller contracted to sell.

[AJL308]

Smurfsarepeopletoo said:

The banks wont tell you what the allegations are as it could be classed as tipping off if the police were investigating you for fraud or some other illegal activity.

No, the banks won't tell you because they don't want you to see their failings.

[Tyre Smoke]

Durzel said:

KTMsm said:

I'm more concerned how this happened, I sell a lot of cars and take bank transfers, whilst this was only £100 next time it could be thousands and I can't believe that I have been given almost no information by the bank

It could've been millions! It wasn't though, it was £100.

KTMsm said:

I'm certainly taking it to the Ombudsman and am considering taking the buyer to Court for my losses both due to him breaking the contract and his subsequent allegations but I need to find out what they were.

So, you've got your money back and you've received compensation - what is your argument going to be to the Ombudsman?

Also just lol at taking someone to court when a) you've been compensated and b) you don't even know the substance of what was alleged.

This. All day long this.

Ultimately they aren't going to divulge confidential information. You can push all you like, but they just aren't. Plus you've had your money back, and 100% on top as a goodwill gesture.

Whatever else you are hoping to achieve, you will spend thousands and lose.

[Durzel]

AJL308 said:

Durzel said:

KTMsm said:

I'm more concerned how this happened, I sell a lot of cars and take bank transfers, whilst this was only £100 next time it could be thousands and I can't believe that I have been given almost no information by the bank

It could've been millions! It wasn't though, it was £100.

KTMsm said:

I'm certainly taking it to the Ombudsman and am considering taking the buyer to Court for my losses both due to him breaking the contract and his subsequent allegations but I need to find out what they were.

So, you've got your money back and you've received compensation - what is your argument going to be to the Ombudsman?

Also just lol at taking someone to court when a) you've been compensated and b) you don't even know the substance of what was alleged.

Isn't there the argument that the bank has on some way interfered with a private contractual matter? The buyer was contracted to purchase and the seller contracted to sell.

I doubt it, otherwise you could argue that banks would be party to every contract that exists that involves the transfer of funds.

Banks won't get involved in the particulars of a contract, the buyer in this case presumably (potentially fraudulently) told his bank that it was an unauthorised transaction, or something along those lines.

[Evanivitch]

KTMsm said:

After spending 5hrs on the phone and waiting over 14 days I finally have the bank's final resolution - they are giving me £100 back plus £100 compensation - which doesn't cover my time / aggravation IMO

Unless you can quantify your time/aggravation to greater than £100 and justify that in the small claims court, you're not getting anywhere, surely?

[KTMsm]

Evanivitch said:

Unless you can quantify your time/aggravation to greater than £100 and justify that in the small claims court, you're not getting anywhere, surely?

I'm self employed and charge £50/hr so there's £250

I also had my account frozen so I couldn't withdraw £3000 to buy a car that afternoon - losing the profit on that, I did advise the bank of that at the time

I also lost the profit on the part exchange and haven't yet sold the original car

[KTMsm]

Canon_Fodder said:

On your last point, it was an alleged fraud, not a civil dispute.

I would like to pursue him for fraud because it was a civil dispute - and there's not much to dispute as deposits on cars are never refundable as google will demonstrate

What would be the point of taking a refundable deposit ?

[CarCrazyDad]

mmm-five said:

You could always use the contract terms you both agreed to when you took the deposit, to raise a claim against the buyer for grabbing his non-refundable deposit back...but as has already been said, you'll need to justify your specific losses as you seem to be £100 up so far!

If you want to be difficult, sure - If you had in writing the deposit was non refundable on the premise of completing work then you can issue a small claims court fine

I don't think you can claim for "time" but you can for out of pocket direct expenses for example if you had to cancel a client to deal with the bank you may be able to?

I would have half a mind to if I was bored

[KTMsm]

Durzel said:

Also just lol at taking someone to court when a) you've been compensated and b) you don't even know the substance of what was alleged.

He broke the contract and I have suffered loss due to that

I would like to find out what was alleged, which was part of the reason for posting

[KTMsm]

Mezzanine said:

Have heard a few anecdotal stories about this sort of stuff happening when buying second hand watches.

Buyer sends the money so it’s visible in your account, you send out the watch but they contact their bank and recall the money.

Apparently you can only recall payment on the same day you send the payment, so it pays to send the watch (or whatever) out the next day.

That was the other reason for this post - it was four days later

[Bogsye]

I’d do a Data Subject Access Request on the bank and ask for a copy of the complete complaint file. That may get you some of the internal notes. Might be interesting to see what’s there.
I did this recently and was surprised just how much information I managed to dredge. Look at your banks website to see how to do a DSAR.

[Tyre Smoke]

KTMsm said:

He broke the contract and I have suffered loss due to that

I would like to find out what was alleged, which was part of the reason for posting

I'm sure you would. But the bank won't tell you.

And the bank won't entertain any consequential losses. They will rightly tell you to pursue the buyer.

How much money do you want to throw away here?

[Durzel]

For someone whose time is apparently so valuable, all this talk about ombudsman and small claims court for a £100 deposit makes the opposite point, I think.

You've got your money back, and then some. Surely in your line of work flakey buyers are an occupational hazard? I'd assume a court would consider being messed about and "win some lose some" as being the ebb and flow of business as a car trader.

Have you spoken to your bank and (presumably) refused their offer of compensation and told them that it's not enough and/or you need to write to your MP first to see what they think?