One for the legals, text messages forming a contract
Discussion
I won’t go in to specifics as may well go to court but I have texts and WhatsApp conversations agreeing £15k in costs to do work on a car for me. I paid and 3.5 yrs later the car is not even 50% finished.
The other side says that the promises, apologies, agreed prices and deadlines do not form a contract as it was only by text “and anyone could have used his phone” despite it being about 300 replies over 3.5 yrs.
I believe it is a contract as proven in previous case law.
He believes that recent case law would not apply as the car work /money changed hands in 2017/18.
I will speak to a couple more solicitors but wondered on other options and experiences.
The matter will be resolved very soon any way via another (legal) route.
The other side says that the promises, apologies, agreed prices and deadlines do not form a contract as it was only by text “and anyone could have used his phone” despite it being about 300 replies over 3.5 yrs.
I believe it is a contract as proven in previous case law.
He believes that recent case law would not apply as the car work /money changed hands in 2017/18.
I will speak to a couple more solicitors but wondered on other options and experiences.
The matter will be resolved very soon any way via another (legal) route.
It will depend on the precise facts of the case but I agree with the previous two posters - it's difficult to imagine that there won't be a contract here if you agreed what work the chap was going to do and for how much. If he was acting in the course of a business (I presume he was) then that's helpful too. Just out of interest what losses are you claiming?
Edit: to be clear, the fact that some/all communications were by phone is utterly irrelevant. You can form a contract via semaphore if you want to.
Edit: to be clear, the fact that some/all communications were by phone is utterly irrelevant. You can form a contract via semaphore if you want to.
Edited by Roger Irrelevant on Saturday 21st August 11:11
PH User said:
I would have thought that the garage would be better spending time sorting your car, rather than wasting time fighting the case!
100% this. Never ceases to amaze me how shortsighted some people are on stuff like this. Like time wasted with lawyers, court, paperwork and general dicking about is somehow free. You can definitely have a contract via text….just make sure the texts say what you think they do! I am amazed by the number of people on Judge Judy (please note I am not using this as evidence you can have a contract by text or any suggestion this is how UK courts work!) who say ‘I’ve got a text saying they owe me the money” and it really doesn’t say that at all….just a close approximation which they then interpreted the way they wanted
A contract is formed around an offer by one party, an acceptance of that offer by another party, and then consideration (payment). If any of those areas are woolly it could fall apart.
It can even be verbal but obviously much harder to prove.
It will all boil down to the specific details within the offer at the start and then any subsequent revisions.
Was the offer an estimate ( i.e a good guess that could change as the works progress) or a fixed price quotation? and what was the specific time frame made in the offer?
If it goes to court they will pick it all apart word by word, any decision will be based on such, and not what is fair.
It can even be verbal but obviously much harder to prove.
It will all boil down to the specific details within the offer at the start and then any subsequent revisions.
Was the offer an estimate ( i.e a good guess that could change as the works progress) or a fixed price quotation? and what was the specific time frame made in the offer?
If it goes to court they will pick it all apart word by word, any decision will be based on such, and not what is fair.
Edited by PAUL500 on Saturday 21st August 13:07
Thanks all. My claim is purely that he says he will not release my unfinished car unless I sign to say I will not seek a refund for all of the work paid for but not done.
It was agreed verbally and by several texts following a quote to proceed and finish within 6 months. Now 3.5 yrs on and he has til 31 Oct to finish or I send to county court.
Business but sole trader. Unfortunately he has form and I have learned a lot. No bankruptcies or Ccjs on him though that I have found.
It was agreed verbally and by several texts following a quote to proceed and finish within 6 months. Now 3.5 yrs on and he has til 31 Oct to finish or I send to county court.
Business but sole trader. Unfortunately he has form and I have learned a lot. No bankruptcies or Ccjs on him though that I have found.
Edited by Caddyshack on Saturday 21st August 12:27
Whatever it is that he wants you to sign, I'm not sure that having him having your signature agreeing to this could stop you from chasing him money owed after after you finally get your unfinished car back.
You might want to look at that aspect - as in, whether you could sign the doc, get your property back, and then chase him anyway.
In addition you could also look at selling the debt afterwards. For a slight loss on the total amount owed a debt collection outfit might pay you up front and buy the debt, while they deal with chasing and recovering their money from him.
However I am not a reverend, never mind a lawyer.
You might want to look at that aspect - as in, whether you could sign the doc, get your property back, and then chase him anyway.
In addition you could also look at selling the debt afterwards. For a slight loss on the total amount owed a debt collection outfit might pay you up front and buy the debt, while they deal with chasing and recovering their money from him.
However I am not a reverend, never mind a lawyer.
Caddyshack said:
Thanks all. My claim is purely that he says he will not release my unfinished car unless I sign to say I will not seek a refund for all of the work paid for but not done.
It was agreed verbally and by several texts following a quote to proceed and finish within 6 months. Now 3.5 yrs on and he has til 31 Oct to finish or I send to county court.
Just go round there with a few "friends" and get your car back, you don't owe them any money, so they have no legal basis to stop you taking it.It was agreed verbally and by several texts following a quote to proceed and finish within 6 months. Now 3.5 yrs on and he has til 31 Oct to finish or I send to county court.
I would ask though what on earth convinced you to pay all the money up front before the car was finished, rather than some sort of stage payment agreement as you normally would for most long term jobs such as building work
Caddyshack said:
...deadlines do not form a contract as it was only by text “and anyone could have used his phone” despite it being about 300 replies over 3.5 yrs. ...
Just to focus on this part, your claim against him would be a civil claim, meaning evidence would be submitted on paper for the judge to consider on the basis of 'the balance of probabilities' (ie who does the judge believe, or what is he convinced by).I am not sure at all that a judge would accept that a person who has had the same phone number for over 3.5 yrs, answers calls to it very regularly, is the owner of a business who takes on work and provides estimates - leaves his phone with 'anyone'.
Good luck, but I don't think you need it - this guy has brought all of this on himself and deserves what's coming to him.
In fact, the response from him that he wants you to sign a document that you won't go after him for what he owes you seems to be admitting in writing that he has stolen from you - 'intent to permanently deprive' which is the basis of theft, obviously a criminal act.
That particular angle might be worth exploring as well.
Very complicated story cut short. He said had unexpected bills and broken machine so would be a delay. It was suggested that if I advanced payment I could jump the waiting list and get my car back faster….very stupidly I fell for it!
By the way. If anyone knows my car please do not mention names or companies on here. Thanks
By the way. If anyone knows my car please do not mention names or companies on here. Thanks
You would be signing any document under duress, which you could prove via the statement he made. so its validity would be pretty low, sensible thing is to get the car back, and then take him through the courts anyway.
As a sole trader he is on the back foot, as fully liable for the business so would be unable to fold and start again afresh like ltd companies do.
As a sole trader he is on the back foot, as fully liable for the business so would be unable to fold and start again afresh like ltd companies do.
Thank you all.
To cut a long story short. It was staged payments but progress was slow due to other people’s jobs coming in after mine but taking up work, he then said that an unexpected vat bill and a machine fault has meant a cash flow issue. It was then offered to me to pay some money at that point and my place in the queue would be a "down tools on all other jobs until my job was finished" (this is all in the texts) I agreed to that on the proviso that I became no.1 priority…….this was still in 2018/19….stupid me, nothing changed at all and I lost my bargaining chip.
To cut a long story short. It was staged payments but progress was slow due to other people’s jobs coming in after mine but taking up work, he then said that an unexpected vat bill and a machine fault has meant a cash flow issue. It was then offered to me to pay some money at that point and my place in the queue would be a "down tools on all other jobs until my job was finished" (this is all in the texts) I agreed to that on the proviso that I became no.1 priority…….this was still in 2018/19….stupid me, nothing changed at all and I lost my bargaining chip.
PAUL500 said:
You would be signing any document under duress, which you could prove via the statement he made. so its validity would be pretty low, sensible thing is to get the car back, and then take him through the courts anyway.
As a sole trader he is on the back foot, as fully liable for the business so would be unable to fold and start again afresh like ltd companies do.
Agreed - my priority would be to get my car back. I'd sign whatever if I could confidently demonstrate it was under threat or duress.As a sole trader he is on the back foot, as fully liable for the business so would be unable to fold and start again afresh like ltd companies do.
Then I'd release the hounds to drag him through the legal system and get back what I think is due.
Edited by The spinner of plates on Saturday 21st August 14:24
If the cash flow situation is genuine then taking him through the courts probably won’t get you your money back anyway, even if you win. Something to bear in mind…
The obvious counter argument to his “we never had a contract!” guff would to be ask, if that were the case, what basis he a) did any work on the car at all and b) why he is now refusing to hand back your property unless you sign waivers etc? On its face there’s obviously been a contract to do some work for some money.
He sounds utterly shady so I would not expect any resolution to be smooth sailing, I’m afraid. I also think it’s nuts that you let it drag on for 3.5 years when it was supposed to be a 6 month job, even with the COVID situation.
The obvious counter argument to his “we never had a contract!” guff would to be ask, if that were the case, what basis he a) did any work on the car at all and b) why he is now refusing to hand back your property unless you sign waivers etc? On its face there’s obviously been a contract to do some work for some money.
He sounds utterly shady so I would not expect any resolution to be smooth sailing, I’m afraid. I also think it’s nuts that you let it drag on for 3.5 years when it was supposed to be a 6 month job, even with the COVID situation.
Edited by Durzel on Saturday 21st August 14:25
Durzel said:
If the cash flow situation is genuine then taking him through the courts probably won’t get you your money back anyway, even if you win. Something to bear in mind…
The obvious counter argument to his “we never had a contract!” guff would to be ask, if that were the case, what basis he a) did any work on the car at all and b) why he is now refusing to hand back your property unless you sign waivers etc? On its face there’s obviously been a contract to do some work for some money.
He sounds utterly shady so I would not expect any resolution to be smooth sailing, I’m afraid. I also think it’s nuts that you let it drag on for 3.5 years when it was supposed to be a 6 month job, even with the COVID situation.
The story is very complex and I can’t get in to those bits as I know it will end in an angry tirade from someone so I will keep it to text message being contractual. You are 100% correct and I have been a silly fool that is too soft on people.The obvious counter argument to his “we never had a contract!” guff would to be ask, if that were the case, what basis he a) did any work on the car at all and b) why he is now refusing to hand back your property unless you sign waivers etc? On its face there’s obviously been a contract to do some work for some money.
He sounds utterly shady so I would not expect any resolution to be smooth sailing, I’m afraid. I also think it’s nuts that you let it drag on for 3.5 years when it was supposed to be a 6 month job, even with the COVID situation.
Edited by Durzel on Saturday 21st August 14:25
Very wise words and quite obvious when you put it like that, thank you.
Edited by Caddyshack on Saturday 21st August 14:41
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